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scutum again
#16
Quote:thank you for this information;again, it would be interesting to know if shield emblems and colors were different with each cohort while pertaining some sort of a legion recognition emblem ? As for tuniques colors , were they associated with shield colors ?

That is one possible interpretation of the meagre evidence for the early imperial period - though we don't know with any certainty which period Vegetius had in mind when referring to the 'antiqua Legio' ( which subject has been debated before on the forum ), or even if he was describing a 'mish-mash' of several periods, which seems highly probable, since he refers to 'the ancients' when describing recruit sizes, and he refers to various earlier commanders from Roman history. Certainly his description of the Legion containing " within itself the heavy-armed foot, that is: the principes,hastati,triarii,and antesignani, the light-armed foot consisting of the ferentarii,archers,slingers and balistarii, together with the legionary cavalry incorporated with it" matches no known legionary organisation, and sounds like a compendium drawn from earlier writers such as Cato, Caesar and Frontinus whom he refers to as well as others. His reference to how a legion was armed and drawn up also seems to be a mix of different earlier organisations with references to e.g. 'Triarii' and 'spathae'.

The idea that each Legion had a single 'device', and each cohort a different colour for its shields is a plausible one, but by no means is this the only possible interpretation.

We also have little knowledge of tunic colours ( endlessly debated here and elsewhere)......the best guide I know of, containing virtually all known information is
"Roman Military Dress" by Graham Sumner ( a member here) published by 'The History Press' or his earlier two 'Osprey' volumes, "Roman Military Clothing". It is highly unlikely that tunic colours were associated with shield colours.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#17
Avete!

I know we've covered this before, but I just can't recall the conclusion: What word does Vegetius use for "cohort"? And are we reasonably sure that "cohort" is the best interpretation? (Rather than "legion", "century", or just "unit"!) It can make a big difference in how we interpret his evidence!

Thanks!

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#18
Quote:And are we reasonably sure that "cohort" is the best interpretation? (Rather than "legion", "century", or just "unit"!)
More problematic (imho) is deciding exactly what Vegetius (or his source) had in mind for the shield decoration. He says:
Quote:But so that, in the tumult of battle, the soldiers would not ever stray from their comrades (contubernales),they painted on their shields different signs (signa) for different cohorts (cohortes), which they call "designs" (digmata), as is the custom even nowadays. Also, on the shield facing (adversum), the name of each soldier was written in letters, adding which cohort (cohors) or century (centuria) he was from.
What exactly is a digma? (And note that Vegetius doesn't say the number of the cohort/century, as is sometimes mis-translated.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#19
Well, assuming adversum means the side facing the soldier, that makes sense, so they could quickly identify their own shield from the storage location (if there was such a thing) before the muster, or perhaps identify a decapitated soldier after the battle. The use of the words cohors, cohortes would seem to lend credibility to that anecdote concerning the soldiers who infiltrated the enemy cohort during one of the civil wars by picking up that cohort's scuta.

The so far unanswerable question is what kind of design would distinguish one from another. Background color? Special labeling as unambiguous as "Coh V"? We can only guess, I guess.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#20
Back in 2000 I researched Roman and Celtic shield graphics with a mind to write a book on the subject. I put that project on hold while I wrote my WWII book. Now my Longshore Soldiers is published I'm looking forward to getting active with my shield research again and chit-chatting about it here on RAT.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.redrampant.com">www.redrampant.com
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#21
FYI

I now have the 4th edition of Phil Barker's book with the 200 shield patterns. A HUGE improvement over the drawings in the 3rd edition.

If anyone wants a scan I'd be happy to help out. Just send a PM.

~Theo
Jaime
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