Where have our Eagles gone?

[john m roberts]

When not on "active service" military standards were stored in the Temple of Saturn in the Forum. At least thhat was the practice during Republican times. It dated from the days when the legions were disbanded for the winter and reformed each spring, receiving their standards at that time. Has anyone excavated under the t. of Saturn to see if any got left in a storeroom?

[JeffF]

There must have been far more than 20-25 Eagles. During the civil war of Octavian and Antony Octavian had 45 legions and Antony 30 and the Parthians held at least 7 eagles captured from Crassus and the Armenians held at least one of the two lost in Antony's invasion of Parthia when his siege/supply train was destroyed (the other perhaps held by Parthia also).

What is the source for the Eagles being kept in the Temple of Saturn? Why wouldn't they be kept in the Temple of Mars?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Robert]

Hmm, OK, that makes sence. So even though there must have been more eagles around, they are still very scarce and prized, not something easily lost. And like was said, it does make a nice lump of gold. Reminds me of the vast Inca treasure, most of the artifacts were melted down by the Spaniards for easy transport and conversion to coin and bar. Oh well, seems we will just have to wait till one turns up in some forgotten place, then.

[Dominicus]

I never really did the practical math about it. I guess there would never have been much more that 50 or so Eagles at any given time in Roman history. I do wonder about the earlier Eagles from say the Republican era. I wonder how long those older ones remained in circulation. Best and only real bet to score an original would be in a grave,buried away under a temple,or tossed down into a cave.

[D B Campbell]

What is the source for the Eagles being kept in the Temple of Saturn? Why wouldn't they be kept in the Temple of Mars?

e.g. Livy 3.69: the "treasury" is the aerarium Saturni. Being valuable as well as sacred, the standards appear to have been stored there during the Republic.

[Q Rutilius]

Do we even have a good idea what eagles looked like? Did they change over time?

[JeffF]

Details from Trajan's and Marcus Aurelius' columns as well as other statuary gives me the idea that the Eagles were NOT uniform in appearance. I think our modern military sensibilities would give us a bias toward uniformity which was alien to the Roman Army. It would be likely that each eagle was made by an individual craftsman and as such each would have a unique appearance. Such individuality would do much toward strengthening the esprit d' corps of each legion.

[M. Demetrius]

Jeff, I think you're right. And the styles probably did change over time. We all want to think they looked like the eagles atop American flags, but they evidently didn't. Some are shown with upraised wings, others outstretched, etc. And the coin representations of the American Eagle have changed considerably over the 300 years or so of American coinage. Why should the Romans have kept the same design over three times that long of a span?

[Q Rutilius]

I was thinking about the American eagle when I made that post. (Great minds think alike )
I thought that at one time we had images of eagles on RAT somewhere, or am I just dreaming?

[M. Demetrius]

Seems like that's true. Aquila or eagle+standard might bring them up. Of course, they're all modern repros, and might not be like the originals, but barring some find somewhere that creates arguments about "no, there were 15 feathers on the right wing and 13 on the left...." we'll just have to go with what we make, eh?

[Ron Andrea]

Where can I find a reliable image of a Roman legion eagle?

Wikipedia's samples look "modern", though I assume that represented on the denarius is more accurate.

[M. Demetrius]

If you find one, let us all know. Trajan's column has something that could have been an eagle, but it's hard to see those things clearly. All the sculptures or grave stele, from what I've seen, are too eroded to get much in the way of details sufficient to actually create one. Eagles on coins don't look one bit like what we've considered "Roman Eagles".

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... ignum.html

You'd certainly get some raised eyebrows if you brought out an Aquila that looked like that. What did they really look like? Can't say: don't know.

[Ron Andrea]

That creates a conundrum: If we don't think am Aquila looks like what was represented on coins, steles, etc., how will we recognize one if we find it?

For example, if we found a solid gold eagle representation in approximately the right pose, would we reject it as an Aquila because it would (probably) be too heavy--not to mention too valuable--to lug around a battlefield? On the other hand, if we found a hollow gold eagle would we reject it as inappropriate to the honor and dignity of the role as Aquila? What if it wasn't gold?

What's the correct pose even? Some of those examples represent wings up, some wings out. (In heraldry the different poses have unique meanings, don't they? Did they to the Romans?)

[M. Demetrius]

Nobody knows yet, is my best answer. And what if they were gold foil over wood? Would there be any remains if one were buried?

As for the significance of different poses (one I saw represented somewhere had one wing up and one down, as if turning in a tight spiral) I haven't heard or read anything about that. So what color -- no, never mind. :lol:

[john m roberts]

I think they looked like plastic lawn flamingoes.