Theory that \'Celts\' are a myth

[authun]

That is something I was not aware of and does point towards the chap as perhaps being something of a bounder! :roll:

Perhaps somebody could get him to come on here and explain himself then? That commercial attitude certainly disappoints me

LOL, Everyone is entitled to make a buck.

It's the difference between a popular book and peer reviewed publication. In the latter one is subject to one's peers but in popular books, anything seems to go. Brian Sykes did the same with his Seven Daughters of Eve and his company Oxford Ancestors:

http://tinyurl.com/369x5e6

"If you are of European descent, then there is a 95% chance that you will be related to one of the clan mothers described in Prof Sykes’ book “The Seven Daughters of Eve”."

Oppenheimer has the commercial edge over Sykes because it is much more exciting for people to think that they are descended from some Viking in Britain than some woman who lived around Athens 40,000 years ago.

cheers
authun

[Ghostmojo]

I am descended from a Viking and his name was Erik ... I've even seen the film! :wink: What more proof could anybody need? :twisted:

[authun]

I am descended from a Viking and his name was Erik ... I've even seen the film! :wink: What more proof could anybody need? :twisted:

I have a distinct marker, P109 which belongs to a larger norse group, L22, but my lot didn't even arrive until the 12th cent when they migrated from French Flanders. Keen as some of these guys are to equate it to the vikings, I think my lot must have stopped off around Calais to stock up on duty free but decided to hang around for a few centuries. Maybe there were some pretty girls around or maybe they were all too sea sick to make the channel crossing or maybe they just liked the local moules but probably they just found the vikings too noisy and wanted a bit of peace and quiet. My lot and the vikings parted company a few centuries before there were any vikings. Despite what these guys tell me, I don't think rural Worcestershire, where they have been for 800 years, is noted for its Scandinavian heritage.

cheers
authun

[Ron Andrea]

Isn't that what the Norman did? Norsemen who stopped off in what is now Normandy for a few centuries?

That's why, at one level, these discussions of who belongs to what group are so pointless. Who we are is carried--and displayed--as much by our culture and our choices, much less by our genes.

[authun]

Isn't that what the Norman did? Norsemen who stopped off in what is now Normandy for a few centuries?

Yup, but that was in Normandy. My lot was 300/400 years earlier and in neighbouring Flanders but nontheless we moved out when they moved in.

That's why, at one level, these discussions of who belongs to what group are so pointless. Who we are is carried--and displayed--as much by our culture and our choices, much less by our genes.

Yes, a point often forgotten is that your y chromosome is only 2% of your nuclear DNA and is described by geneticists as fulfilling "the role of juvenile delinquent among human chromosomes — rich in junk, poor in useful attributes, reluctant to socialize with its neighbours and with an inescapable tendency to degenerate."

cheers
authun

[Ghostmojo]

... "rich in junk, poor in useful attributes, reluctant to socialize with its neighbours and with an inescapable tendency to degenerate."

I didn't realise you offered a translation for heraldic latin mottos Harry!!! That is straight off my family crest :lol:

[Conal]

... Meanwhile, the Oppenheimer Test continues to be sold for $489 to people who have read his book and want to see how they fit into it

That is something I was not aware of and does point towards the chap as perhaps being something of a bounder! :roll:

Perhaps somebody could get him to come on here and explain himself then? That commercial attitude certainly disappoints me

Disappointing indeed, and costly as it is necessary to purchase his books to ensure one has missed as little of the arguements as possible

My 10 year old niece was querying why I have so many books on the same subject (over 20 on the Arthurian period and the same on Celts etc ... and more on my Xmas list). I had to explain to her that although they all have the same info there is the matter of interpretation, intentional or uninentional bias, how people cherry pick facts to fit theories unintentionally or intentionally and of course sometimes a need for sensationalism to sell books. I explains that I had to read round a subject to get a better perspective on a subject with as open a mind as you can muster.

She was agog then aghast as she had assumed anyone who got a book published was as honest as a horse (which she prefers to people and judges us all gainst ) ... fortunately she is a very bright 10 year old who will now look at things in a very different light and is quite looking forward to finding some controversy now.

[authun]

I had to explain to her that although they all have the same info there is the matter of interpretation, intentional or uninentional bias, how people cherry pick facts to fit theories unintentionally or intentionally and of course sometimes a need for sensationalism to sell books.

Articles appearing in peer publications are very narrowly focused on a specific question and have to report all possible interpretations. However, these people are human and have their own ideas and with knowledge of other peer publications they can write books with what they see as a 'best fit' for whatever particular model they prefer.

For example, two cemeteries, Queenford Farm and Berinsfield are in close proximity and represent late Romano British and early Anglo Saxon cemeteries resp. They are of obvious interest to both acculturalists and migrationists alike. Do the dates overlap, if so to what degree, does Berinsfield start where Queenford Farm ends or is there a hiatus between the two and if so, how big is the gap? Secure dating is obviously required. Before any firm dates are available, based on artefact evidence, migrationists would argue for Berinsfield replacing Queenford Farm whilst acculturalists would argue that they were contemporary and represent a change from one culture to the other within the same population.

The dates published in Antiquity Journal found a slight overlap and the authors therefore have to state both acculturalist and migrationist models:

"The start of a new cemetery at Berinsfield demonstrates a new approach to burial, focusing on grave furnishings. It came into use while the last burials at Queenford Farm were taking place. Changes in burial practice and in the location of cemeteries have happened often within recorded history without a major population change, and we could be seeing such a shift here, with a move by the local population over a generation from one burial site to the other. However, the continental influence apparent within the Berinsfield grave assemblages does support arguments for new arrivals, while the biological evidence, even if not securely linked to ethnic origins, at least suggests some significant differences (for example in diet and stature) between the two populations."

As the dates overlap, it is not conclusive but the people who do these studies must be itching to state what they think has happened. But, they can't do it in a peer study so my guess is, if they feel strongly enough, they write a book and use this and other data that they have to argue their preferred case.

best
authun

[authun]

... "rich in junk, poor in useful attributes, reluctant to socialize with its neighbours and with an inescapable tendency to degenerate."

I didn't realise you offered a translation for heraldic latin mottos Harry!!! That is straight off my family crest :lol:

You must be related to the Murgatroyds of Riddlesden Hall who were notorious "for their profanity and debauchery". Members of the family were fined, imprisoned and excommunicated for a variety of offences, including refusal to accept knighthoods.

They were sentanced "upon a Saboth day in the said Chappel immediately after divine service to make publique acknowledgement of their said offences and misdemeanours by them committed against God and His Holy religion in that Holy place, and should likewise every of them in a sorrowful manner aske forgiveness of God, the congregation, the relator and his people."

They appear to have been medieval versions of Harry Enfield's character, 'loadsamoney'.

cheers
authun

[Conal]

I had to explain to her that although they all have the same info there is the matter of interpretation, intentional or uninentional bias, how people cherry pick facts to fit theories unintentionally or intentionally and of course sometimes a need for sensationalism to sell books.

Articles appearing in peer publications are very narrowly focused on a specific question and have to report all possible interpretations. However, these people are human and have their own ideas and with knowledge of other peer publications they can write books with what they see as a 'best fit' for whatever particular model they prefer.

I would assume that if one was using scientific data to hypothesise a new viewpoint/methodology in a popular science book then it would be prudent to get the science peer ratified first.

[authun]

I would assume that if one was using scientific data to hypothesise a new viewpoint/methodology in a popular science book then it would be prudent to get the science peer ratified first.

You'd think so yes. Or at least put in the sort of warning in that Jim Wilson did:

"we know of no other study however, that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque and the Celtic speaking populations of Britain."

Wilson could not have been clearer, this was a very tentative suggestion and the implication was that it should be used with great caution.

best
authun

[keravnos]

First appearance of Celts in Greece.

Cambrige Ancient History 6. 4th cent. BCE -page 172

Dionysus wanted to pay his old debts to Sparta. In 369, more
than twenty ships arrived with 2,000 Celts and Iberians, the first
appearance of such a force in mainland Greece, with fifty cavalry and pay
for five months. They made a very good impression (Xenophon Hellinika vn. 1.20—
2, Diod. xv.70.1), and a similar force appeared the next year.

Later on in the same page, it is written that

In summer 368 (the last
prytany of the archon-year 369/8), ambassadors came from Dionysius to
Athens bearing letters about the 'building of the temple', i.e. the temple
of Apollo at Delphi, destroyed in 3 72, and about the Peace (Tod no. 133).

That in itself may be insignificant, still, 2000 Celts and Iberians landing at Peloponnese and learning a thing or two about their environs with Dionysus proposing to rebuild the Temple of Delphi, I think are very plausible reasons why in 279 a huge celtic army went for the Oracle of Delphi, the one that their former employer Dionysus of Syracuse had given money to rebuild. They played a major part in changing the Hellenic way of fighting from the aspis (round shield) to the thureos (oval shield). In fact, post 279 BCE certain historians suggest that there were only two types of line infantry in the Hellenistic world, those carrying thureos shields and the pikemen (who carried small round shields), those fighting in the Macedonian manner. To have such a profound impact, they must have existed, no?

The ancient greek writers called them either Keltoi or Keltai. They were adamant that they existed. There is evidence in the form of archeology (from graves found to coins) that suggests a cultural link between all celtic areas, Britain included. They were defeated and later "Romanized" then post 449 CE "germanized" ,and then post 1066 "Normanized" (please pardon the new words), still from what I have read the vast majority of the population is genetically the same. That means that cultural domination is the key not mass exodus/influx of new peoples. The same thing happened in Anatolia after the Turkish conquest and elsewhere in the world. Don't worry though. Last I checked the entire world is speaking and writing in english, not their birth languages, just like me and others in this forum.

[caiusbeerquitius]

But, in relation, how about: "Europeans gave the Americans a wonderful gift in form of a massive statue, called "Liberty""?

still from what I have read the vast majority of the population is genetically the same.

Really? Where?

[Ghostmojo]

... They played a major part in changing the Hellenic way of fighting from the aspis (round shield) to the thureos (oval shield). In fact, post 279 BCE certain historians suggest that there were only two types of line infantry in the Hellenistic world, those carrying thureos shields and the pikemen (who carried small round shields), those fighting in the Macedonian manner. To have such a profound impact, they must have existed, no?

The ancient greek writers called them either Keltoi or Keltai. They were adamant that they existed. There is evidence in the form of archeology (from graves found to coins) that suggests a cultural link between all celtic areas, Britain included. They were defeated and later "Romanized" then post 449 CE "germanized" ,and then post 1066 "Normanized" (please pardon the new words), still from what I have read the vast majority of the population is genetically the same. That means that cultural domination is the key not mass exodus/influx of new peoples. The same thing happened in Anatolia after the Turkish conquest and elsewhere in the world. Don't worry though. Last I checked the entire world is speaking and writing in english, not their birth languages, just like me and others in this forum.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that they didn't exist in some form or other. The points are surely - exactly who were they, and how extensive were they? Where they one race or a catch-all name for a larger more indeterminant group/s? There is no absolute guarantee that the people who produced the La Tene and Halstatt cultures were the Keltoi/Celtae or even occupied the same area, but they may have been - or they may have just have been influenced by it. The situation with the British isles is different yet again with even die-hard Celtophiles admitting the case for the ancient British and Irish as being either Celts or Celt-influenced by no means cast in stone. Lots of subtleties at play here.

Your own Romanized/Germanized/Normanized comment is also worthy of futher examination because such hefty influences are sometimes less substantial than at first thought, and less long-lasting - and often brought about by powerful minority warrior elites (certainly the case with the Normans, and probably/possibly the Angles, Saxons etc.) who eventually get subsumed themselves. It is entirely conceivable that the ancient peoples of the British Isles were a completely different bunch to the European Celts occupying France and Spain (or Gaul and Iberia), and worthies such as Francis Pryor for example make the point that although these invading influences (Roman/German/Norman) came to bear on Britain - the native culture whilst being influenced by it, survived and outlasted it. The question is of course - what was that native culture?

[authun]

Your own Romanized/Germanized/Normanized comment is also worthy of futher examination because such hefty influences are sometimes less substantial than at first thought, and less long-lasting - and often brought about by powerful minority warrior elites (certainly the case with the Normans, and probably/possibly the Angles, Saxons etc.) who eventually get subsumed themselves. It is entirely conceivable that the ancient peoples of the British Isles were a completely different bunch to the European Celts occupying France and Spain (or Gaul and Iberia), and worthies such as Francis Pryor for example make the point that although these invading influences (Roman/German/Norman) came to bear on Britain - the native culture whilst being influenced by it, survived and outlasted it. The question is of course - what was that native culture?

Well we more or less 'know' that speakers of celtic languages lived in Britain and Ireland in the LPRIA and that these languages replaced an earlier unknown language, the remnants of which survives in the hydronymy. If the hydronymy is an indication, this earlier unknown language was at one time widespread in Europe, eg. the river Don has cognates in the Danube, Rhone (Rhodanus) and the Dnieper.

We also know that Britain had good connections with celtic speaking Gaul through the accounts of Caesar and through the distribution of coins. We can speculate also about the name similarites of tribes named in Britain and amongst the Belgae. These connections can also be shown in the shipwreck archaeology for the bronze age where vessels in British waters have goods apparantly manufactured in France.

Accounts also tell us of connections between Ireland and Iberia, which is supported to a lesser extent of that of France, by bronze age archaeology. On the other hand, the bronze age archaeology in Ireland shows some connection with Scandinavia too.

The trading routes during the bronze age were extensive and it is quite likely that language and/or people moved along them. If I had to guess, it would be to suggest that Ireland was more influenced by the celtic languages from the Iberian peninsular and that Britain was more influenced by the Gallic celtic speakers.

The paleolithic origin of the inhabitants of Britain and Ireland has more or less been abandonned and several studies have shown that the start of the neolithic saw an influx of new settlers, largely into an empty landscape if Shennan and Edinborough are accurate. However, the population level again appears to decline dramatically and remains at very low levels for several centuries at the end of the european LBK and then rises steeply at the start of the continental TRB. What is not known is whether this is the same population recovering or whether it involves yet another migration cycle. We don't know therefore if the celtic speaking peoples of the LPRIA are descended from the LBK, TRB or the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age will have seen movements of people because one doesn't stop farming to mine ores but celtic speaking peoples are more widespread than the ore sources and the DNA evidence tentatively suggests, in the case of Abergele in the copper mining area of north Wales, that the people have very different paternal lineages than most of the other celtic speaking populations. Whilst this points to a movement of people, ie miners, it is only one group in one place and cannot therefore be used to create a model for the rest.

best
authun