Phalearae on Standards

[Rado]

On this picture I show how we are able to reduce gradually the diameter of Signum Disc 16,5 / 16/15/14 cm. which we produce in our club.

But in future I may do different variations from the basic model depends on different requests and needs.
Our Signum Disc are made with the same technology which are used to produced Coolus helmets in antiquity-gradually bending to brass with lathe.

[M. Demetrius]

There do seem to be different sizes of discs on various sculptures and coins, and sometimes different designs for the disc part itself, with various types of raised and lowered rims. I begin to think that it's not crucial exactly how the raised ring is configured, as long as it follows one of the shown samples.

Rado, your discs. Did you cast them, or raise them with hammers? Looks like you started with flat metal and worked it into shape. Am I right?

[Rado]

Frater M. Demetrius I hope to be comprehensive with my answer to your question.From several ancient Roman bronze, copper vases and one helmet Coolus type D which I was fortunate to hold in my hands I form a conclusion that they were prepared by stretching the metal during the spinning process. The Romans knew the lathe-Metal Spinning in it simplified form.Scratches traces (remaining after such metal processing) are clearly visible on the surface. But this is my opinion on the matter.
So I decided it would be not wrong to use this method (Metal Spinning) for making Signum discs. Of course that first I made matrix model on which to be lead sheet brass 0,5 mm thickness.
And this is the final result:
I think I got good (authentic) looks.
Discs are very light 0.8 grams.
Relatively low price considering that they are made of brass and there are many waste material during the production.

[P Sertorius Scaevola]

According to what meager evidence there is, the number of discs on the signum does NOT correspond to the number of the century in a cohort. On Trajan's Column, for instance, you can see 2 signa side-by-side, and they both have 5 discs--in a typical camp, centuries from different cohorts would not be camped next to each other. Plus, the maximum number of discs known in artwork is 7, and the minimum is 2, so that doesn't seem to match up with either century or cohort number. Finally, centuries were identified by the name of their centurion, or by his rank (hastatus prior, etc.), not by a number.

As I recall, there is also no indication that a cohort had a standard of its own. The vexillum was apparently used for any detached portion of a legion, whether it was one century or 6 cohorts. (Darned if I can give you a citation for that, so apply grain of salt, sorry!)

My usual guess is that the phalerae were battle honors of some sort, but it's only a guess. Probably the Romans knew what they meant, but I'm not sure we can even be certain of that!

Valete,

Matthew

Hi folks,

Aware of the debatable nature of the evidence I'm still sticking to the logical approach here. The Signum with the 7 'discs' has troubled me for years without any clue to its reasons. Maybe the 7th is a Phalera and the other 6 are denomination discs for the Centuria. That line of thought may lead to other options like 2 Phalerae, 5 discs and so on. Nonetheless, there is a lot to say for a Centuria denomination system.
Pointing out the obvious once over, the word Signum then stands for a clear sign of beloning to any specific Centuria; 10 Cohors wide and 6 Centuriae deep each Centuria would have an unmistakable sign as to where it would be positioned, either in camp, on the march or in battle formation. Following this line of thought, it offers a reasonable explanation for the two '5th Centuria' Signa on Trajan's Column...

No doubt the more experienced and battle proven units could -in the same manner of thinking -have less denomination disks and more Phalera on the Signum and possibly an artist depicting the standard might show both in the same manner on sculpture or tombstones. The exact beloning of the person on the tombstone would come from the text, not the picture.

So, appreciating the lack of solid proof, I'm perfectly allright with maintaning my views towards the function of the Signum. Hopefully an acknowlegded authority i.e. Maxfield might be willing to shed some new light on the subject, as it is clearly far more interesting at present then how to actually produce signum disks.

[M. Demetrius]

Spinning makes total sense, but I'm not set up to do that at this time. I'll probably just have to beat them out on a form. I'm not worried about that process, just short of time.

Thanks for the answer.

[Urselius]

OK, I'm going to go off on a flight of fancy here.

The phalerae look, at least to me, quite like ritual cakes, inasmuch as they look like the popanum cavalry shield which was identified with the shape of the sacrificial cake. Polybius, describing early Roman cavalry (Histories, vI.25.7): "They had oxhide shields like knobbed popana, the kind used in sacrifices."

The suovetaurrilia sacrifice also included, along withe the pig, sheep and ox, sacrificial cakes. A public suovetaurilia was offered to bless the army before a major military campaign. Therefore could the phalerae record both the formal piety of the unit and also the number of major campaigns it was involved in?

Just a thought.

[Rado]

This is a complete finished Signum-discs Phalerae on the request of colleagues from the other Legion that I had to do. Depicting mythological scenes with Tegey Princess Auge- Athene's priestess, and Heracle.

[Rado]

Disc are made of two parts. I used two technologies.Application is a metal casting.The disc is made of Metal Spinning Technology (on lathe tool). Weight 300 g. brass !

[G.Pub.Britannicus]

I'm not trying to be a stitch nazi here, but 75mm is 3"- a 5" disc would be 125mm to 127mm in diameter.

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Hi Rado. Sorry to resurrect this old thread. I've tried searching but found nothing. What is the context or evidence for the signum discs with the mythological scenes on them? Couldn't find any artwork or tombs showing them just re-enactors using them. They look great! Thanks!

[Rado]

Hi Rado. Sorry to resurrect this old thread. I've tried searching but found nothing. What is the context or evidence for the signum discs with the mythological scenes on them? Couldn't find any artwork or tombs showing them just re-enactors using them. They look great! Thanks!

I do not have such evidence Jay. This Signum-discs was produced with this mythological scene by private order because of the authentic antique image. To the present day there no evidence of what certainly was depicted on the Signum-discs. It is logical to be images of emperors and gods. So in this case I am depicted the God Hercules.

[Rado]

These are three Roman Ring-keys. Particularly suitable for SIGNIFER because he was treasurer of the centuria or cohort.
These are my wax models.

Here are shown one of the Signum-discs “ Large silver disc from Niederbieber”
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquip...ignum.html

On it also is a depicts a scene.
http://i017.radikal.ru/1304/7c/60ef87a577a2.jpg

[Rado]

One more legionary plate .This time with inscription LEG•XIIII•GEM .For our colleagues from Germany . Made here in the distant Roman province Scythia Minor by our blacksmith master. Together with 3 cohort disk and a crescent.

[Rado]

There is another option for the 3 Signum Disc version:It is an artifact but it is not popular in contemporary (modern reenactment ) Roman legions. The size of the disc reduces (gradually) from in the direction from the bottom to the top.

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Very nice as always Rado.
I've posted this before but I don't remember where. On most of Antony's legionary coins you can clearly see that the pole is visible through the disc. In other words it looks like a pole with a ring and then a disc in the middle. Or possibly a tube in which the pole slides through the middle of the disc. The die cutter went out of his way to show it like this since it would have been easier to just cut out a circle rather than two circles with a line between them. If that's not clear what I mean take a look at the picture below. Also on better preserved specimens the pole looks like it is carved and twisted rather than smooth. Any thoughts about this or has anyone made one in this way?



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