US senator scorned for re-enactment of Waffen-ss

[Dithrambus]

Well said Jona.

We live in very difficult times, economically, politically etc etc. We desperately need leaders who are not only of sound judgement, but exceptional judgement. I have no issue with reenactors who choose to represent the SS or who/whatever, but for a politician this was extremely poor judgement which is exactly what we do not need.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

It would be the same kamikaze as me walking on the temple mound in Jerusalem in full Roman military kit, spitting down on the people praying at the wall of Herod's former temple.... But that would probably get me killed for real...

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

This tells us several things.
First, that there is no law against it. I am not sure what the laws are elsewhere, but I think that in some palaces until recently, wearing that uniform could get you thrown in jail. This does say something about American freedoms. Take it as you want.

Otherwise, it is a dumb stunt by anyone seeking political office. You would do better having pictures of yourself dressed as a drag queen. (The media would be a lot more sympathetic.) And let us not fool ourselves. Reenacting the ss (use of lower case intentional), is not like civil war, or any other kind of reenacting. Professed political non-affiliations not withstanding.

Having been in a war, I found it to be no fun at all. It was a sheer nightmare. For this very reason I cannot do modern reenacting. I have always been struck by the naivety of some reenactors who want argue how they would have acted had they ever been there, or distort the realities. I submit that normal people do not know what they are capable of, good or bad, and do not know until they find themselves in a situation that they cannot extract themselves from. Reenacting by its very nature is a deception to both those who do it, and those who see it. It is too clean. It too often conveys a romantic idea of something very un-romantic in reality. It does not matter what is said or done publicly. This does not mean I am against reeacting. The opposite. I am very much for it, as it is often the only exposure some will have to history. This is particularly true of ancient history. This is far enough away in time and reality, that I can indulge myself. I am never running for public office, either. However, I think we all have to read between the lines, no matter what period we study and face the fact that despite the outer facade any fancy dress, the reality is one of misery. Over and over people have been seduced and tricked by the illusion of glamour and the lure of elitism until they realize it is too late. Elites have a nasty habit of being manipulated by the very nature of their existence, that of dedication to an ideology. These ideologies are often predatory and malicious. Thus with the ss. Even more so than most.

History, and in particular, military history is often an illusion as much as a recruiting poster. It is often written by those who have academic qualifications, but no direct experience. They are free to debate and study without the having to face the realities of life under the conditions they write. The further we go back in time, the more so this becomes. The Romans are not an exception to brutality, just more successful at it than most. We are the cumulative product of our past. We need to reflect on that, and in particular have some care on who we emulate.

Ralph

[Narukami]

We venture dangerously close to the line of Current politics, however ....

I am more concerned with what the politician says and does than by what he wears. There are plenty in this year's election, and in the recent past, who did not dress like Nazis, but spoke like Nazis.

That said, Jona is quite right, and Iott has displayed a cultural and historical "tone deafness" that is all too common among too many politicians.

Indeed, in fifty years when WWII has passed from living memory, all of this will be less of a problem, but never will it be 'not a problem.'

Bitburg is an interesting situation and, as is usually the case with history, not black and white but rather infuriating shades of gray.

Again, we are starting to stray over the line and I do apologize to exacerbating that -- it is not my intent to inflame or insult. Frankly, I think this is a tempest in a teapot and a distraction from more important issues.

Once again my apologies for ranting -- I have always found this Forum to be a safe haven from the lunacy that passes for discourse in the public sphere as it is currently constituted and I would rather keep it that way.

:|

Narukami

[Jona Lendering]

First, that there is no law against it. I am not sure what the laws are elsewhere, but I think that in some palaces until recently, wearing that uniform could get you thrown in jail.

If I am correctly informed, in Germany, it is still forbidden to display, for example, swastikas.

I have always been struck by the naivety of some reenactors who want argue how they would have acted had they ever been there, or distort the realities. I submit that normal people do not know what they are capable of, good or bad, and do not know until they find themselves in a situation that they cannot extract themselves from.

Well said, Ralph.

We are the cumulative product of our past. We need to reflect on that, and in particular have some care on who we emulate.

I think a good example of WW2 reenactment is this one. They are reenacting what the city of Dordrecht must have looked like in May 1940, usually in streets that still exist. People can see in their own neighborhood what it means if a war comes to your town. The real points - the fear, the terror - can of course never be reenacted, but at least the visual aspect can be recreated.

I am more concerned with what the politician says and does than by what he wears.

Yes David, yes.

Bitburg is an interesting situation and, as is usually the case with history, not black and white but rather infuriating shades of gray.

Infuriating, yes; but also the point where we can learn most. I am disgusted by violence and cannot feel much sympathy for people who use it. At the same time, I notice that the Romans have made different choices, and yet are rational and successful, and could be human. That is at least worth contemplating.

Indeed, in fifty years when WWII has passed from living memory, all of this will be less of a problem, but never will it be 'not a problem.'

I am glad to see that Germany has overcome its traumas. That is probably Germany's greatest achievement. We must not forget what has happened, but we are not hostages of the past ("History is a nightmare from which I am trying to escape"). We can take back our lives and may, one day, even enjoy the places that were once associated with the atrocities of the past. I think there is nothing wrong with making fun of (aspects of) it - like Henk's link.

Berlin's Holocaust Memorial is a monument te commemorate the greatest crime in history, but it is interesting to see that people sit down on those big stones and enjoy the sun. I think that that is within the realm of what is now possible. Using it to park your bike against, or picknicking on it, are now not possible. It is hard to define the limits, which will gradually be shifting from heavy symbolism towards normalcy. Defining that limit exactly is difficult - infuriatingly difficult - but a senator ought to realize that reenacting SS is somewhere close to this limit and ought to avoid it.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Totally agree with Decius on this. The biggest problem i have with people re-enacting eras too close to our own time, and especially wars, is that they do not know what war is.

I for one would never want to be in any war, nor even close to it. I have seen what war can do, not only with friends who were in a war, but to the civilians.
Working as special make-up artist for a few films i had to watch and study closely what for instance a .50cal pullet does with someones body, as well as artillery shells et cetera. Disgusting photos, all reality. Sometimes people found it too much gore to even depict in a movie.

Especially when seeing kids of today wearing military uniforms, running around some mock battlefield firing blanks, pretending they are in a battle combined with their gun slinging fetishism repulses me. On my idea to show true war during a display *that is, including the gore via special effects, people said, no the public would not like that.

It is funny to see how the truth is flung out of the window immediately during these kinds of re-enactment.

Also people who say, i would have done this, or the often heard: I would be in the resistance... disgust me.
You do not know what you are capable of untill you are put in the situation itself, and i for one know full well how easy it is for people to be mesmerized by symbols, uniforms, and hatred. I try to warn the kids i teach whenever this subject comes along.

Of course Rome was a brutal society, it had slavery but also humanity. However it is way back in our past, no one still living has ever been there or knows any real Roman, and i sometimes wonder what the Romans would have thought if they knew we were doing this.

History is to be studied and learned from, also when re-enacting, your main task apart from having fun, is education.

That is why people re-enacting should always be very aware of what they do.

And secondly, it is the main reason why i often ridicule, provoke, troll, hassle and irritate others to try and wake them up, sometimes also on this board, but a lot less than on the Dutch World War Two forum which i was banned from for life :mrgreen:

People these days cannot take criticism nor mockery. Is it my problem? no its theirs, and i know i will not stop acting and re-acting to plain stupidity and dumbness.

M.VIB.M.