Did Romans sharpen their weapons?continued from inlaid pugio

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

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The question which arose basically was : did Romans sharpen their pugiones, evolving to, did they sharpen all of their weapons.

The debate, yes or no, could be enhanced by are there visible file marks, or is there sharpening evidence on the archaeological finds we have ?

here is the discussion so far:
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Re: AH3264S Limited Edition Silver Inlaid Pugio

Postby Doc » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 17:55
Lee,

Do you think that the Romans used a sharp pugio for camping purposes? Technically, if the point is sharp, then it is dangerous already. I read once that a one inch puncture wound to the abdomen can be lethal. My gladius is not sharpened and I have been able to puncture many things with it because the point is sharp. I wonder to what lengths Roman soldiers went to make sure their weapons were razor sharp. I personally do not think that they were razors probably just a sharp point for pierceing.

Paolo
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Paolo, of course Romans would have sharpened their swords, as well as their pugiones, what makes you think their weapons were not sharp ?

M.VIB.M.

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Postby jvrjenivs » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 18:19
I would second Henk-Jan. Look for instance at the nicely pattern welded pugio from Haltern. It has be made that way you can sharpen the blade. Why should you add this (expensive and craftmanships) feature if you're not using it?

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Re: AH3264S Limited Edition Silver Inlaid Pugio

Postby Doc » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 18:52
Well, I do not think that pattern welding was used just for the purpose of sharpening a blade. So unless there is reason to believe this was the sole purpose, then some support would be required to your claim because I am sure you can sharpen blades without a patterns weld.

If you read my post I said that I do not think razor sharp was necessary. If you have a slashing weapon then I agree it should really be sharp along its length. However, the Romans mostly stabbed (from what we know) making the point the most important part. If the point is dull it will not penetrate thus making the rest of the sword length less effective.

Do not forget that blunt force trauma is also deadly. Do the two of you think for a moment that if a shoulder were hit with the edge of a Pompeii or Mainz sword even if not very sharp, that it would not destroy the tissue and crack the bone? The edges of these swords are not weak rather they are thin and quite strong while the center is very thick and solid. Just the momentum of a downward swing like a hammer (if this is what you were doing) would destroy anything anatomically related on impact.

Again, I do not have proof for this but I do not think it was necessary for razor sharp objects. Of course I am stating an opinion. However, it appears Henk that you are absolutely certain of this fact.

If they sharpened them great. If not great. It really does not make a difference since we are not going to war or lay seige somewhere.
Paolo
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Postby jvrjenivs » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 18:57

Doc wrote:Well, I do not think that pattern welding was used just for the purpose of sharpening a blade. So unless there is reason to believe this was the sole purpose, then some support would be required to your claim because I am sure you can sharpen blades without a patterns weld.

I agree that pattern welding is no direct suggestion for sharpening, but I found it a good direction as there is just a small 'border' of hard steel along the edge of the dagger. That would for me suggest that it is there for some purpose.
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
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by Gaius Julius Caesar » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 19:29
I think the sources quite clearly state tha tif there was not an opening for a stab at the enemies face , throat or abdomen, then a slashing cut to the tendons at the back of the legs wouldsend the enemy crumbling to the grouns screaming and biting the edges of their sheilds.....very rough translation of Polibius or Herodotus, or some Greek attached to the Roman fporces in Scipios time, I think.

A sharp edge would be of great use in this.
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by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 19:57
I would advise you all to read the Romec book in which clear photos of Roman damage on bone is shown.

Waffen in Aktion : Akten der 16. Internationalen Roman Military Equipment Conference (ROMEC), Xanten, 13.-16. Juni 2007 / hrsg. von Alexandra W. Busch und Hans-Joachim Schalles
Auteur Busch, Alexandra 1975-
Schalles, Hans-Joachim 1951-
Congres @ROMan Military Equipment Conference (ROMEC) ; 16 (Xanten) : - 13-06-2007
Impressum Mainz am Rhein : Von Zabern, 2009
Vorm IX, 385 p : ill ; 29 cm

Xantener Berichte ; Bd. 16

ISBN 9783805342223

There you will find proof, in the photos of the cut skulls and other damaged bone parts, of the sharpness of Roman military weaponry.

M.VIB.M.
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by Doc » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 20:03
Thanks for the list. Will try and locate some of these references here in the States.

However, Henk, if the bone is cracked how can you tell if it comes from a sharp edge or a thin blunt edge? If you hit the bone causing an indent, who is to say that it can occur only from a sharp weapon.

Again I did not say that the Roman weapons were blunt all I said was to what degree would the sharpening be necessary IF you have a formidable point. Even a relatively honed blade will cause the damage you perceive as requiring a REALLY sharp blade. Human tissue, muscles, and bones are not that difficult to compromise requiring that objects be sharpened to the nth degree.
Paolo
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by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 20:32
Well, with the ISBN number you should be able to buy it somewhere, but it wont come cheap... thats the luck of having a University library close at hand..

The cuts and slashes on the photos are impeccable and even parts of the side of some skulls were just sliced off clean.

I dunno whether i can scan some of the images, dont have the book here at the moment.

It is of course also true that you do not need a razor sharp edge, just like not every katana was honed to the micrometer...

but sharpness and utility are most of the times related.
M.VIB.M.
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by Crispvs » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 21:34
I was not trying to suggest that pugiones would not have had sharp edges. To my mind it stands to reason that they would have done. Although it is possible to slice cleanly through an object with a very blunt blade if you have been trained to swing it correctly (I have seen a 2 litre plastic bottle full of water sliced CLEANLY in half by a sword with a 5mm re-enactment fighting edge with my own eyes - the user knew how to use a sword properly), I still thing weapons would have been sharp. After all, in hand to hand fighting not every blow you manage to land on your opponent will end up being at full strength so sharpened edges certainly increase your chances of wounding him. I doubt that any weapon would have been razor sharp (it would be time consuming to produce and would quickly lose its edge) but I certainly think they would have been sharp enough to make clean cuts in human flesh when used by trained hands.
However, my point was really that as re-enactors, sharp weapons are not really a good idea, because they could actually injure someone. The real ones were intended to do this but how much do we really want to risk potentially seriously injuring our friends or ourselves during our weekend hobby? Obviously, points have to be pointed to achieve the right look but the same does not apply to edges. With a narrow rounded edge they look sharp from even quite close (a member of the public you are chatting with at a distance of three to four feet, for instance) but are not actually sharp enough to inflict serious injury.
As to use as a camping accessory, can we please, please put this tired old factoid permanently to bed? Pugiones are not well suited to use as utility knives and in any case, most sites turn up scores of small utility knives, whether or not any evidence for pugiones exists there.

Crispvs
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by John Conyard » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 21:46
Well, if you are using a weapon, or even pretending to use a weapon, it should have the correct heft and balance. If it does not it will not handle in the correct way. If you just want something to look pretty you can leave it unsharpened. But if you want a weapon which is fit for purpose then it needs to be sharpened. All weapons require discipline, but discipline is no bad thing. Surely this is just common sense.
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by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 21:50
True Crispvs, any re-enactment weapon, no matter how blunt can do damage to anyone..

The reason a lot of Roman groups do not engage in mock battles is that their swords are museum quality copies, and therefore deadly.

Even the bluntest replica of a gladius still has a point which is lethal.

Re-enactors should always be aware of this. That is why often swords shouldnt be given to children during displays. But well there is an event safety thread.

This discussion was merely about whether or not Romans sharpened their blades.. and for camping i would not use a pugio, not only because its of no use, but because when not on an event, you should leave your Roman stuff at home.

M.VIB.M
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by Gaius Julius Caesar » Sun 26 Sep 2010, 21:57
I certainly agree with the points you both make.
The blade that is made to the way it was meant to be handles differently than one of the many indian replicas.
But, even a well made blade need not be sharp, my Albions come to mind. I found the handling of the blunt mainz was almost exactly the same as the sharp.
But as you say, it requires discipline to use a blade correctly and not injure yourself or others.
This is definately not a bad thing.
In a related vein, we are restrictedin many offshore sites from using
knives that are not provided for us. Stanley knives which are far more dangerous than a good sharp folding knife, with a high quality blade. Nannied to death, when civilisation was built with the help of a knife at our sides.

Now, would someone help me off my soapbox, it's quite high.....
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[john m roberts]

Not Roman, but in the Migration Period the whetstone was an object of veneration. Ceremonial whetstones have been found with sculpted terminals. A huge ceremonial whetstone was found in the Sutton Hoo treasure. It seems unlikely that the whetstone would have enjoyed such status had it been used only for sharpening chisels and other such tools. These were warrior cultures with tremendous emphasis placed upon the primacy of weapons in the status of the aristocracy. Germanic to be sure, but it means that at least some ancient peoples valued sharp weapons.

[Sean Manning]

Reading the quoted posts, it sounds like the debate is not "did the Romans sharpen their blades" but "how sharp were Roman weapons". Roman swords were designed to cut and thrust effectively, so there wouldn't be much sense in leaving the edges very dull.

There has been a similar debate in WMA circles about how sharp were medieval swords. Basically, it probably varied from sword to sword and soldier to soldier, and some parts of a blade could be kept sharper than others. A dull sword will do less damage, while a razor sharp sword will be damaged easily. I suspect the same was true in the ancient world. I can't think of any references to Roman soldiers sharpening their weapons, but Horace Carmina 1.2.21 does talk of "sharpened steel" (acuisse ferrum) shedding the blood of Romans in the civil wars. The Latin verb to search for would be acuere "to sharpen".

[mcbishop]

Reading the quoted posts, it sounds like the debate is not "did the Romans sharpen their blades" but "how sharp were Roman weapons". Roman swords were designed to cut and thrust effectively, so there wouldn't be much sense in leaving the edges very dull.

It always used to be said that the scalloping that could be seen on water tanks at sites like Corbridge and Housesteads were due to soldiers sharpening their weapons.

This little piece of speculation has now gone out of fashion, not least as most sites produce rectangular hones/whetstones. Of course there are many things you can sharpen (knives, cleavers, scythes etc) but the best answer to this debate will come from metallographic analysis of the edges of blades, not least as some swords had steel edges welded on during the production process (why, if not intended for sharpening?) and any such activity will alter the cross-section of the weapon. Problem is persuading enough museums to allow such analysis (which requires a small chunk to be taken out, unless a broken blade is found and the end can be polished). David Sim now has a completely mobile setup for doing this (including a laptop with an attached microscope) but his main concern until now has been armour in advance of his and Jaime Kaminski's new book. The BM has certainly done some analysis of Roman swords but I don't think much has been done on daggers.

Mike Bishop

[Doc]

I agree Dr. Bishop with what you said except a harder edge can also be useful for giving the edge a longer life reducing its "breaking" not necessarily just for sharpening. However, I do agree that some sharpness was imparted to the weapons I just do not think Ultra sharp. Thus the same sword blade would have been sharper in some parts than others. If I were a Roman soldier, I would see to it that the tip or front edge was the sharpest for purposes of thrusting.

[Epictetus]

I’m not sure what use, if any, this is, but I came across this quote the other day.

…the famous art of giving a keen edge to swords…

Plutarch, Moralia, Why the Pythian Priestess now Ceases to Deliver Her Oracles in Verse, 2.

Unfortunately he says nothing about this “famous art,” and only mentions it in passing, comparing art and science.

Edit: And I just thought of checking Pliny, and found this:

All these varieties [of iron] are known by the name of "strictura," an appellation which is not used with reference to the other metals, and is derived from the steel that is used for giving an edge.

Natural History 34.41

The translator says that this passage is "doubtful," but Pliny might be referring to a metal bar that was used as a sharpener.

[WorkMonkey1]

As a soldier why would you not keep your weapons sharp and in good order? Since they represent your only chance of survival in battle.

If it is a question of how sharp they were kept, presumably as sharp as your legions armourer could get it?

[M. Demetrius]

Pliny might be referring to a metal bar that was used as a sharpener.

Cooks and butchers still use such a honing tool. I just bought a small one for keeping an edge on trimmers for trees and bushes. Works very well, even in the 21st century.

[Doc]

Stuart, it is true that the weapons would have had an edge. But I think that one has to look at practicality. Once the sword has an edge and can do damage, I do not think they would have spent several more hours to make sure they could shave with it. Maybe they did but I do not see it as practical once enough has been done to assure lethality

[Sean Manning]

If it is a question of how sharp they were kept, presumably as sharp as your legions armourer could get it?

That depends, Like I said, the sharper you make a blade, the easier the edge will be damaged, and the faster it will wear out. On the other hand, if its too dull it will be less effective on weak cuts and slices. And the sharper you want it, the more work to keep it that way! Over 500 years and a continent, I'm sure that some swords were razor blades, and others more like letter openers.

I agree with Mike that metallurgical evidence would be the best kind, if such an investigation is possible.