Percentage of Christian Visigoths AD 400

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,

I am wondering about the percentage of Christians among the Visigoth population, from the crossing of the Danube to AD 410.

What I think I know
1. The Visigoth Christians were Arian
2. Accepting Christianity was a prerequisite of Valens for crossing into Rome
3. At that time, baptism for the forgiveness of sins was a one-time allowance.
4. Many people did not accept baptism until late in life, lest they do something and not be allowed to enter heaven. (i.e. Constantine)
5. Alaric must have favored Christianity because he spared the churches in Rome (AD 410)

My assumption is:
1. Not all Visigoths were practicing Christians
2. Many may have still been heathen (practicing Visigoth paganism)

My questions are:
1. In your educated guesses, what was the percentage of Visigoths who were practicing Christians?
2. Would the heathen Visigoths have been open about their religion?

[Epictetus]

Tough question.

That [Valens] might have greater confidence in [the Visigoths], they promised to become Christians, if he would give them teachers who spoke their language. (132) When Valens learned this, he gladly and promptly granted what he had himself intended to ask... And since at that time the Emperor Valens, who was infected with the Arian perfidy, had closed all the churches of our party, he sent as preachers to them those who favored his sect. They came and straightway filled a rude and ignorant people with the poison of their heresy. Thus the Emperor Valens made the Visigoths Arians rather than Christians. (133) Moreover, from the love they bore them, they preached the gospel both to the Ostrogoths and to their kinsmen the Gepidae, teaching them to reverence this heresy, and they invited all people of their speech everywhere to attach themselves to this sect.

Jordanes, The Origin and Deeds of the Goths, XXV. 131+

According to Jordanes they seem to have been rather excited (some translations even use the word enthusiastic ) about Christianity. If this is the case, I would guess that the vast majority – 80% is a wild guess – were “practicing” Christians to some extent. Also, if this were the case, I would think that those still professing paganism would have been a bit quiet about it.

On the other hand, Jordanes may not be wholly reliable. He isn't a neutral historian. Even if he was reliable, those people newly converted may have been a bit more enthusiastic than they and their children would be a generation later, in 400 AD.

[Lothia]

Ave Epictetus,

Good point, and thanks. Eighty percent may be a very high number, but then again, they were petitioning for entrance into the empire and a little boot licking helps.

Gives me something to think about.

Me.

[Vindex]

May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "practising" Christians?

Do you mean those who gave up their other gods completely, or those who assimilated Christianity into their worship of deities?

[Lothia]

Ava Vindex,

That is a very good question. The Romans were adept at layering one religion atop another to name a Celtic Goddess as equivalent to a Roman goddess with similar properties and that way, appease both parties.

I don't know if the Germanic goddesses and priests were as willing to layer one atop another. I know Christians would not - period.

I guess what we should wonder is: could a Germanic priest allow one of his gods be equated to the Christian God?

So, now the question might be: What percentage of Visigoths profess to be Christian under these circumstances, and ignore or deny their adherence in another situation.

What percentage of Visigoths were Christians, forsaking all others?

How would that effect their actions in situations where the two religions were at odds?

Me.

[Theodosius the Great]

I agree 80% seems plausible but I think we should probably distinguish between the aristocracy and the tribesmen. The former were probably 100% Arian Christians and bilingual at this point in time. The aristocrats wanted to become Roman generals so they had an interest to assimilate to a large degree.

I guess what we should wonder is: could a Germanic priest allow one of his gods be equated to the Christian God?

Perhaps the first generation to convert would have done this since it would have made the transition to Arianism more palatable than to Orthodox Christianity. God the Father would be equated with Woden and Christ with Thor, etc... . Arians and Norse pagans believed Christ/Thor was inferior to Woden/God the Father so, in their minds, it wouldn't have been a big leap.

~Theo

[recondicom]

Well… around 400AD Christianity was a lot different. There were the jacobites a Gnostic sect… perhaps followers of St. James and there was a middle of the road cult of which we could get a taste with “The travels of Higeria” an aristrocrat roman woman from Leon, Galicia in 380 AD. There are free copies of this book circulating over the internet. The federati Visigoths were more Roman than other tribes such as the saxon sueves or any other saxon… but, in 400 AD it may as well be Zeus. Or as the Alans said “Je Zeus”.

[NYOD]

Lothia . . .

re yours: "
I don't know if the Germanic goddesses and priests were as willing to layer one atop another. I know Christians would not - period."

Actually, Christians of Rome prayed to the sun, following the practice of Constantine. The practice was widespread by the beginning of the 5th century, so much so, that Pope Leo references Christians standing on the steps of St Peter's on Sunday praying to the rising of the sun. As Christianity evolved from this transition period(4th century) the church, through the power of the state, was able to dictate a more narrow theology that enforced the Nicean Creed -- under penalty of death.

Now, I am not one to fail to document my sources . . .but I have just found this forum, and offered this as my first post. I'll add sources to my posts as I have time to post more and more here.

NYOD
8)

[Lothia]

Ave NYOB,

That is very interesting. I would like the source for that.

I am writing a short story set in the time of Alaric and want it to be as historically accurate as I can and, at the same time, educate the reader.

Thanks for the post.

Me.

[Lothia]

Ave Recondicum,

Interesting about the jacobites, but I think they appeared a bit later in history than the time I am interested in.

It seems there were a lot of splinters along the stalk of Christianity. Thanks.

Me.

[M. Demetrius]

If that were not so, Lothia, the Epistles would never have been written, eh? Get three people together and you're likely to have four opinions on the same subject. :wink:

[recondicom]

Salva lo
The early Christians had many sects and many Bishops. The common denominator was a ritualistic elaborate sacramental ceremonies and the finger pointing towards the religion of war. Center and surrounded by the walls of a deep spirituality were the women responsible for the advancement of Christianity as the dominant religion of the West. There were Arians among the Visigoths of Spain and the Sueves became very religious Christians after two generations. Other factors were the different policies that preceded AD 400.
Severus believed in all and nothing. There is such a thing as the Severus Scroll. Aurelian in one God “Sol Invictus.” Diocletian and Galerius in killing Christians. Although, new currents say is all Galerius and the Iberians… (of the Balkans) in Spain and elsewhere within the parochial environment. The parochial division was the key to the later development as Alaric declares his conversion. Constantin II (born in Arles land of the Gnostics) was deified perhaps for being anti-Jewish… And then Julian the Theosophist. Perhaps, a syncretistic view.
vi.

[Lothia]

Salve recondicom,

Very interesting comments. I am currently reading "Roman Society in the last century of the Western Empire by Sam Dill.

The first Book of this volume is entitled the Tenacity of Paganism. A very interesting take on the laws of the Empire and the principle writers (pagan and Christian).
That is one of the spurs for my opening this line. The Visigoths entered during that century, and I wondered what their composition (percent of Christian) was.

Thanks,

Me.

[recondicom]

S Lothia
The Visigoths of Spain were mostly Arians as the Council of Toledo demonstrates. The neighboring occitans, cot alan , saxons, and other Balkan (unnamed…lol) provide a clue as to their origin of Transylvania Goths…(bats). I could cite the Constantine donation as a source or discredit of historians. Another pointer is the language which is the Spanish language… with some variations inherited from the Legions of the Balkans.