Montefortino side plumes?

[john m roberts]

Does anyone know of any Montefortino helmets with tubes or other mounts for side-plumes found in a Roman context? I've seen some apparently found in Celtic contexts.

[MeinPanzer]

I know you're looking for actual examples of helmets, but here is a depiction of a Montefortino with side plumes on a 3rd c. BC proxeny decree for a Roman from the Sicilian city of Entella. Items depicted on proxeny decrees are usually associated with the individual receiving the honour, and so this helmet is very likely Roman.

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/image ... roxeny.jpg

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

That is not a montefortino but an etrusco corinthian or chalcidian helmet.

M.VIB.M.

[MeinPanzer]

That is not a montefortino but an etrusco corinthian helmet.

M.VIB.M.

How do you come to that conclusion?

[Paullus Scipio]

I would unhesitatingly identify that as a Montefortino, with typical cheekpieces.....

[Matthew Amt]

Yup, looks like the "Full Monty" to me, too! Even has the cabled rim. Cool, never seen that relief before! Love the feathers.

OH!! Oh, heck--It's got THREE FEATHERS, just like Polybius says...

Matthew

[Paullus Scipio]

I'm surprised you were unaware of this relief, Matt.....it has been discussed before a couple of times long ago.......even Duncan Head now accepts that this more likely represents what Polybius meant, than the rather strange 'guesstimate' with the strange looking 'tuft' he illustrated in AMPW and widely copied elsewhere - see e.g. Igor Dzis' illustration of magnesia in AW ( which I debated with him at the time......I had to wait twenty years to see who was right in that particular debate......I'm still awaiting new evidence to settle many others :lol: :lol: :lol: )

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I base my idea about this helme on the Greek lettering and on the basis of my understanding the depicted helmet on the relief cannot imho be any other helmet than

this type :



And not:



M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

Well, Henk, I think you need to look at a front view.......the ridge prominent on 'Chalcidian' types is missing, as is the brow 'V'. Furthermore cheekpieces of the type shown are not generally seen on Chalcidian types ( I think we can rule out 'Etrusco-Corinthian/Apulo-Corinthian') but they are absolutely typical of Montefortino types......

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

That is true, however the typical knob of virtually all montefortino types is missing, and judging from the helmets from the Guttman collection, there are no montefortinos which have the same attachment tubes for plumes. also, the ridged depiction of the helmet brow suggest some other helmet than a montefortino.
It could even be a Negau type with cheek plates...

Check this link for the helmets i was talking about earlier.

edited by moderator due to violation of forum rule #4

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmm, I can see a trace of a knob with a feather in it in the relief Henk.
This has been discussed before and was pretty unanimous as to being a Monte. :?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Also, the one you have identified as a Chalcidean, looks more like an attic helm, but I have noticed a few people identifying that as a chalcidean...why the change?
Chalcideans have a v in the rim, and usually rounder and mostly fixed cheek pieces do they not?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

That there is consensus does not mean i have to agree, LOL

early Chalcidics had rounded fixed cheekplates indeed, i do not know when the hinged type came into fashion

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But no 'V' in the brow.....Attic..... :mrgreen:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

True, more of an attic type indeed... i went with the description of the auctioneers site.. LOL Mea culpa...

M.VIB.M.