Othismos: Classical vs Crowd Theory Othismos

[PMBardunias]

.....I'd say that those two clips demonstrate why pushing tactics would be a failure!
Mind you, Paul B. could have chosen far better examples, such as the Korean riot footage featured on RAT some time ago, as an illustration of Roman combat! ...On second thoughts, perhaps the lack of actual fighting allows illustration of 'pure' pushing. And against an unresisting crowd it is a total failure for the most part.

You seem to have put forth both your arguement and my response, thank you Paul! :wink: Point 1) the other clip would have been a nice shot of Romans, but we are not concerned with Romans. 2) Yes, 3 ranks of trained men pushing against a crowd of unmotivated peace-nicks is a total failure. Now you see why the crowd othismos is superior at depth.

The 'herding' Paul refers to produces, as he says, a crowd more difficult and denser to try and move. The failure of the flanking column of 'yellow-jackets' to drive down the flank ( and presumably the intention was then to turn in and 'herd' the crowd from two directions) illustrates that excessive depth isn't much help either.....

That flying column of yellow jackets is not pushing anyone, so their depth is irrelevent. They are attempting to beat back the crowd members and "herd" them. This gains no benefit from depth- in this they may as well have been cavalry. By the way, I did not say that herding produces greater density, it might, but it doesn't have to. It is the pushing that forces organization on the crowd. Herding is a bit like pushing by proxy, you force your foes to move back into their allies, who logically do no push them away, but move with them until some density is reached for which they cannot easily pack further. This is the mechanic for almost all of the many double envelopments, like Cannae, where we see troops packed to useless density by the actions of horses and light troops- both of which cannot push physically at the level of heavy infantry. By the way, I think the yellowjackets stop because they reach the intersection in any case.