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Othismos: Classical vs Crowd Theory Othismos
#46
First, Cole, i might remind you that according to Paul B's view,the shields overlap right over left. This still leaves the arm problems to be considered but the measuring might change a bit.
I have also being wondering about the angle of the aspis. I don't have one to test it myself,but i think that the shape of the shield might allow for pushing even if it's not square on. This might have been aided even more if as i believe in many shields the porpax was not centered. Interesting to see the results of the next tries.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#47
Gianni,

Interesting, as if memory serves the representations in the art (that can be interpreted as an overlap) from the Chigi Vase onward show the overlap as my shield over the shield of the man to my right. Hence my statement that shields overlap from left to right along the line.

That said, I do suppose that in crowd theory as a man is collapsed into the shield on the right side he would not be able overlap his shield over that of the man to the right, and the only possibility would be for an overlap would be to go behind the other man's shield. This would not allow anything resembling active shield play though, also a concern. Of course, if we presume a starting stance prior to collapse consistent with the art, he would have to collapse into his neighbours shield.

You do raise an interesting point though. I was making an assumption that pushing wouldn't be as efficient in this extended guard, but its entirely possible it could be, particulary as you would be able to pack 2 or more men pushing side on in the same space as one pushing square to fore. Who knows, you may even be able to collectively push from behind.

Food for thought.
Cole
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#48
Quote:So, as the arm represents a fundamental limitation on the pack of the aspides, assuming a maximum lateral pack where the rim of your neighbours' aspis is pressed against the inside of your left arm

This is true for doratismos, but not othismos. In othismos, when side-on, your shoulder is in the bowl of your shield. Thus the rim of the man on your right is not hitting your arm. In fact, depending on how deep you reconstruct the aspis, his rim may be edge-on into your sternum. This would be fatal in even moderate packing laterally. Any forward or backward movement on his part grinds that edge into you. Like I said, there are a lot of "unintended consequences" problems with side-on. There are many with frontal too. I have spent a long time thinking of this.

Quote:This leads to an interesting outcome when you consider the classical sources that describe compacting the frontage of the phalanx to increase its effectivenessWhen we read about compressing the frontage.

My scheme allows men to pack "shoulder to shoulder and side to side"- just like Arrian says by the way, which I think is clear from the context of the rest of the passage. (I actually find this passage useless for hoplites. I believe that Arrian pushed side-on because in his day men formed shield walls in the fashion of the later Fulcum and even if this were drawn from some lost earlier hellenistic manual- it is not in the older taktika- it would be sarissaphoroi pushing. I think here though he is describing men "shoulder to shoulder" in the ranks in "synaspismos", a trope used by Procopius and Maurice as well for close order. Thus it should be read "pushing as is done in close order".)

It may be important that Phillip is credited with a "new" even tighter formation based on his reading of the Illiad. This new formation could surely be the side-on stance which is almost surely the way sarissaphoroi fought. Thus, it is not a hoplite stance.

Quote:you are no longer in an effective pushing position, but you could dramatically increase the number of men fighting along a particularly piece of frontage.

But you now have to reach across your own body to strike forward with a sword- spears are irrelevent for promachos in othismos because you cannot reach the man ahead in any geometry with an accurate dory. Even if you use a spear, you can no longer torque your body to strike, or swing your arm out laterally, but have to jab along side your face at the foe in an extremely weak fashion that engages none of the major muscle groups. unless of course you shift to 3/4 stance, but then you will never get back into side-on with pressure behind you and will eventually end up collapsed into your aspis.

Quote:First, Cole, i might remind you that according to Paul B's view,the shields overlap right over left.


If they pushed side-on, then I it could go either way, or alternating forward and back, though I personally would not let anything come between my and my aspis.

Quote:I don't have one to test it myself,but i think that the shape of the shield might allow for pushing even if it's not square on

I think it quite possible that both lines were in fact angled, right forward, left back. When you overlap my way this is a natural tendency, if the man on your right wants to stay square to the foe he should be a little bit ahead of you. This may in part explain the rightward "pinwheeling" that seems to occur in battles. If you overlap the other way, the tendency is reverse, but less marked in that position.

Quote:Of course, if we presume a starting stance prior to collapse consistent with the art, he would have to collapse into his neighbours shield.

I know of no art that clearly shows a formed phalanx in combat with overlapping shields. Certainly not the Chigi. You should read van Wees on this topic. He rightly points out that these men are all standing with their aspides edge-on. This is commonly seen in art and some of the images make it obvious that they are edge on because there are spears or arms sticking out from between the shields in a way that cannot occur if they were overlapped. If the artist did in fact intend to portray them overlapped we have no way of knowing.
Paul M. Bardunias
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#49
These videos have been posted before,but it wouldn't hurt if they were reminded of here too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9mgsOk ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=escPt0IJ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t_4g5f0 ... re=related
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#50
Interesting, but I'm not really sure I see the analogy there Gianni. They do look like the poses we adopted in our early group pushes at Zeus Epoptes though.

Have fun,
Cole
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#51
I'm not trying to find a direct analogy,but isn't it interesting that ina pushing match,the teams mainly push square on? Their position changes a bit 3/4 but never do they go vertical. I don't see why this ought to change with a shield? Or perhaps i need to see it happening to understand why it wouldn't be the same.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#52
Thanks for posting those clips for those of us who have never seen them! Interesting to see how they had isolated one aspect of fighting with pikes and made it full contact (or close to full contact). Is there any reason why an informal pushing contest couldn't be made with aspides and spear (given some basic safety precautions)?

Such a contest would off course not say that much about real hoplite battles since the spears would only be held upright and not threaten the opponent. And I guess it would be too dangerous to have more than about three rows per side (which again would be unrealistic). Nevertheless, full force competition would be a compelling way to see how different pushing methods measure up to eachother under those restrictions. Just remember to wear tooth protection..
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#53
Gianni,

I've had another look this evening now that I have a little more time, and the more I see, the more I think this is some sort of illegitimate step-child of rugby and English Civil War re-enactment Smile

Have fun!
Cole
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#54
But its accuracy doesn't concern us,does it? I merely post it as an example of how some teams of people in ranks and files might choose to push like,and draw imagination and ideas from them. I find this more suitable for comparison,than mere rugby,since here their only goal is to push the other team back.
Something to note is that with four ranks these people doesn't seem to suffer from asphixiation even without aspides. On the other hand,looking closely to them,they seem to make some use of the pike,as it croses their abdomen,to push the man in front.
The other question is,if they can do it without aspides,would it really be so unthinkable to apply full pressure in similar groups of hoplites? Would it really be more dangerous?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#55
Quote:Something to note is that with four ranks these people doesn't seem to suffer from asphixiation even without aspides. On the other hand,looking closely to them,they seem to make some use of the pike,as it croses their abdomen,to push the man in front.
The other question is,if they can do it without aspides,would it really be so unthinkable to apply full pressure in similar groups of hoplites? Would it really be more dangerous?

My support for this type of pushing is obvious, so I'll just leave it at that. I knew a fellow in the Sealed Knot society from one of the online lists and he noted two things. It is hard to breathe when in the middle of that pack, and many of them wear back and breast plates that alleviate this. With only 4 ranks I doubt they can generate enough sustained force to be lethal in any case. The problem with only 4 ranks is that 4 is really too shallow to have a true crowd effect- a crowd model for example required 4 men in the rear of the "files" just to pack the front rankers tight in a true crowd. So what happens with 4 may have little in common to what happens in 12 ranks, just as what happens in a man on man clash bears little in common to a pushing file.

I advise againt othismos with deeper files primarily due to CYA, so I am not held responsible for experimenting with humans, but there are good reasons for concern that are not obvious. Two things happen to the force as files get deeper. Obviously the force increases, but there is more to it. The ability to sustain high pressure is much greater, because if you have 4 ranks and a man slacks off that cuts a quarter of the force, with 8 the loss is halved. This means that even without tight coordination, deep files can maintain high pressure over time. Second, the peak pressure can go real high. Most of the time a lack of perfect coordination will keep the men from producing the maximum force in any file depth, but sometimes everyone will move in perfect unison almost by accident. These accidental peaks in force are leathal in crowds, and with enough men pushing, you can squash a man enough to damage him lethallly in short order. Of course for real hoplites generating a maximum push in unison was the goal. It is my opinion that the aspis- held properly (important!)- will protect a man from this, but I would not bet your life on it.

No man alive has any experience with the force that could be generated by 12-25 ranks of determined and trained hoplites. Remember these forces occur by accident in modern crowds, while hoplites would be trying their best to create and, more importantly, sustain them. If done properly they should generate well above 1,000 pounds of force,I don't know how high peaks could be. Its something of a catch-22. If your group is generating this level of force you are probably going to have injuries, if they are not, they you are not reenacting an accurate othismos and the usefulness of such data is limited. Remember this is essentially a weapon of war. No one would think of reenacting with sharp spears and swords on humans, I advise against this as well.
Paul M. Bardunias
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#56
The various theories regarding othismos have been debated extensively by all of us in various threads but all new discussions are always interesting. I am not a proponent of the crowd-theory, although some of its aspects are intriguing and could be adopted to fit in with other theories. My objection (or better my criticism) to all theories suggested or tried is that we are always concerning ourselves with what happens with single files, how to exert maximum force, fight and push, etc. This leads to wrong conclusions. We always have to keep in mind that the phalanx operated in ranks. The question is not how to push the man in front of you as far as possible but to do so while keeping your ranks, the cohesion among the protostates. Any theory that does not provide a sufficient answer as to how the phalanx keeps ranks while performing the othismos is inherently flawed. Maximum force should not be the goal, for it usually forces any file (of reenactors) to push blindly and not allow for their frontman to control when the force exerted should decrease or increase. My advice to you guys (as I am a reenactor myself) would be to try to test any theories you have in mind along at least three files. I know that it is difficult to find 6 files x at least 3 men deep = at least 18 reenactors, but this is what you need in order to be able to also test how your pushing affects the line. Try it out with two ranks and you will come to some conclusions, albeit less secure. A big man myself, once I charged against the enemy line. I pushed the man in front of me easily some 2-3 yards back, but suddenly I realized I was alone among enemies. I had penetrated the enemy line but the men next to me hadn't. This made me a strong, glorious, battle frenzied dead man. I should have pushed less, tried to keep in line but I hadn't. This was one of my first attempts to delve into the mechanics of othismos and this was one of the first lessons I learned.

My theory regarding othismos (I call it "controlled push in steps") I have presented in the past and will only describe it in a few words here. No matter what stance you choose, I guess along centuries and hundreds of city states there would surely be variations too, a single command was given to "prepare for othismos". In a matter of seconds (maybe 5 maybe 10, maybe more as the order should be confirmed before implemeted), the men along the line would assume their positions (close in, lean to their shields, stand at 30, 45 or other angles, hold the spear upright, the frontmen getting armed with their swords or daggers, whatever you think fit) and another order would be given as to how many steps the men should take (1, 2, 3, I guess that at times even more). A third order would be given and all the ranks would push forward only as many steps as the order would have been shouting something like (en (one)- dio (two)). This shout is even today used in Greece when a coordinated push or pull is performed. At "en" the hoplites would prepare to push, at "dio" they would push, again in any stance you choose. Once the phalanx takes the number of steps ordained (I would suggest 1-2 as the norm), battle would go on normally. If the push was successful, then the commander would immediately give the order for another push etc. And yes, we have accounts supporting this sequence.
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#57
Quote:A third order would be given and all the ranks would push forward only as many steps as the order would have been shouting something like (en (one)- dio (two)).

I don't see this as at all at odds with the crowd-othismos, in fact I wrote in my original article that men may have chanted in the ranks. The famous call for "one more step" may have been quite literally such a call. We know that Spartans sang to each other prior to battle. A chant like "Artemis Agrotera" would work quite well. One job of the rear rankers may have been to lead such a chant as in rowing. I stress the link between chanting, common to impart unison to many types of labor such as "work-songs" on chain gangs and sea shanties, and dancing to promote coordination of movement within the phalanx. Also the crowd advances in discrete steps, starting and stopping, due to the fact that crowd density will decrease as a phalanx advances a pace and repacks after. Only when one side is giving way will you get a rolling advance, and by then you are no longer a "crowd" in terms of the mechanics. It becomes a line of individuals pushing.

The type of overpenetration you describe would be very difficult for a crowd due to the discrete stepwise advance, particularly if shields overlap in the way I describe it. For a single file to end up penetrating the enemy phalanx it would require the promachos to break out from under the aspis to his right, but also each successive man in the file to do so as well. Also, and this may not be obvious, the same thing has to occur on the other side, each man in the file has to break away from the men beside them who are each bearing some of the weight of the push against his shield upon theirs. Frankly, I am not sure it can happen in a proper crowd othismos, much more likely would be that the promachos kills the man before him and if he chose to break ranks to move forward the file would simply not follow him. There would be low pressure on his back because the moment he steps forward a step, even if the file follows, the pressure drops greatly and out of the crowd mechanic that transfers force efficiently. The crowd can generate extreme force, but only over very short distance. A single step forward breaks the pressure.
Paul M. Bardunias
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#58
Yes, it is not at odds with any theory. You guys are more concerned about the stance and I about the order of things. But as a parameter, rank cohesion should be a factor in any experiments about the most effective othismos stance. You could propose, I guess, that your "crowd theory" could also be applied as a stance to only be implemented to gain one or two steps and then stop the pressure, why not? In my opinion, this is what and how it should be researched. It is always tempting to try out an all-out pushing match when you are clad with all this armor and hold your brightly colored aspis but I really doubt that this is what othismos is about. Any model of prolonged pressure exertion suffers under this prism.

Quote:PMBardunias wrote : The type of overpenetration you describe would be very difficult for a crowd due to the discrete stepwise advance, particularly if shields overlap in the way I describe it. For a single file to end up penetrating the enemy phalanx it would require the promachos to break out from under the aspis to his right, but also each successive man in the file to do so as well.

You know Paul that I do support the "my left over your right" overlap. Actually this is the overlap I had used in the said experiment. But in a line a thousand man wide, a failure of 1% alone to keep the overlap for various reasons would be 10 men. Also, the fact that his epistates might not follow only makes things worse for him. Othismos did not only happen when both phalanxes agreed to it. I believe that hoplites would have some kind of countermeasures which might have included a counterothismos of sorts but in many cases this would have happened if the protostates were not constantly concerned with his place among the ranks and at the same time able to keep it. Actually those overlaps cannot really stop you from exiting the line if too much force is exerted upon you or if you exert too much force, they mostly remind you when you do. I had no problem exiting the line, but one could argue that we were not tight enough in the formation. I don't think we were and this is also an aspect worth researching, how much force is necessary to break the lines in close order (60 cm per man) with the use of an average (D 80+ cm) aspis and an overlap of something like 20 cm. My guess is (from my experience), not really much. With the overlap you are hindered just enough to open yourself to the enemy, but if pushing forward, it can't really stop you if for any reason the force you exert forward is greater than the force exerted by the man on your right (maybe because he meets with a greater resistance than you). Also the fabled step backwards could also be used to help such instances happen. You mentioned a "Thessalian backstep" or something? Where did you find it in the sources? We have talked about it in the past but I am not aware of any mentioning of something like that being described as at tactic in primary sources.

Other useful and interesting experiments would include countermeasures and casulaties as factors:

1. casualty during othismos


The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will be the casualty. Sometime during othismos, this man just stops moving. He might remain standing being "crushed" between the lines or fall if pressure is not too great or if his opponent chooses to back up a bit (if the pressuring model you are using allows it). See what happens.

2. Backstep

The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will backstep. Just before he does he somehow signals the men beside to be ready to stab in case the enemy follows. Once the kill is made, he again tries to push forward.

3. Group backstep

One team pushes, the other backsteps. See how far this could go without breaking ranks.

4. Unbalanced placing

Make one file of your biggest men and one next to it of your smallest women. See what happens during any model of othismos. Experiment with such imbalances in the other line too. (Your strongest against my weakest)

5. Ability to fend off missile attacks during othismos.

Make up many missiles of soft materials and start throwing them at one of your lines while they are pushing. See what stance would provide better protection, count hits in unprotected places if any (could be none or minimal), see how the hoplites would react, will they keep looking at the enemy? Will they look down to protect themselves? Do these missiles add to the stress of combat even if no real damage is sustained? Could a psilos aim behind his line at a single opponent? How about inflicted hits on your own team by mistake?

6. Ability to fight during othismos


Again with shortswords made of soft materials see how it can be possible if it is possible. Noone says they surely did deliver blows when pushing but maybe they could.

7. The ability to defend against stabs during othismos.

One line pushes the other one tries to stab at the men. Try stabbing over the shields. What happens if the hoplites are looking down with raised shields? What happens if hoplites are trapped between shields with their head over the shield?

I am sure that you could research even more parameters of combat during othismos, imagination only is necessary (and a good number of reenactors unfortunately...).
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#59
Quote:Yes, it is not at odds with any theory. You guys are more concerned about the stance and I about the order of things. But as a parameter, rank cohesion should be a factor in any experiments about the most effective othismos stance. You could propose, I guess, that your "crowd theory" could also be applied as a stance to only be implemented to gain one or two steps and then stop the pressure, why not?

As I have said before there is no "crowd-stance". There is only a crowd and whatever stance they get into when pushing in unison. What seems to keep getting confused is that my description of what a phalanx would look like when in full othismos is being taken as starting condition for othismos. It is like my saying that when you ride a motorcycle your hair gets blown back, so someone sits on an immobile bike and applies a hair dryer to his hair to make it look like he's moving. The process is what is important, not the form.

The reason stance is critical though, is that the stance your files are in will indicate the amount of force transfered. Just like coins could be stacked flat on a table one on top of another, hoplites can stack frontally. It is concievable that you can place a coin standing on its edge on a table, then stack a whole tower of coins edge to edge. This is analogous to stacking hoplites side-on. Under exactly the right conditions this can work, but any slight deviation from pushing straight down collapses the whole tower. For this reason I do not believe it can have been used in full othismos.

Now if we found a lost text by Xenophon describing side-on pushing in detail, this would pretty much cause me to disbelieve in othismos as we know it. The reason is that a crowd of hoplites face-on can produce, and more importantly survive, pressures that may not have been possible for any other troop type. A phalanx side-on cannot do much that was not also done by a great many other cultures. If hoplites did not do something that a later shield wall could not, then the special designation of "othismos" becomes frivolous, and the phalanx is simply a wall of shields that pushes against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history.

It is not a question of applying a "crowd" to gain one or two steps and reduce pressure, what you describe is what has to occur in a crowd. If you want to advance any faster, you have to link together such steps, which leads to a shuffling advance, but even here the pressure reduces as you advance.


Quote:Othismos did not only happen when both phalanxes agreed to it. I believe that hoplites would have some kind of countermeasures which might have included a counterothismos of sorts but in many cases this would have happened if the protostates were not constantly concerned with his place among the ranks and at the same time able to keep it.

The transition from doratismos to othismos is one of the most uncertain phases on this type of battle. It is unclear exactly how the lines came together, (piecemeal, all in unison?) or how the foes could counter such a move to keep out of othismos. Obviously it need not happen the same way each time. My feeling is that the only way to avoid othismos is to be willing to give ground, or get some sarissa.

Quote:Actually those overlaps cannot really stop you from exiting the line if too much force is exerted upon you or if you exert too much force, they mostly remind you when you do. I had no problem exiting the line, but one could argue that we were not tight enough in the formation. I don't think we were and this is also an aspect worth researching, how much force is necessary to break the lines in close order (60 cm per man) with the use of an average (D 80+ cm) aspis and an overlap of something like 20 cm. My guess is (from my experience), not really much. With the overlap you are hindered just enough to open yourself to the enemy, but if pushing forward, it can't really stop you if for any reason the force you exert forward is greater than the force exerted by the man on your right (maybe because he meets with a greater resistance than you).

In a true crowd this does not happen because you are all acting too much like one big fluid mass. You would have to really want to do it to make it happen. You touched on the most important thing about overlapping shields, they provide what we call "local information". This is close range, touching, that gives you knowledge of exactly where you are compared to the rank at all times. It is very similar to the type of information used by fish schools and bird flocks to keep such perfect order as they move in groups.

Quote:Also the fabled step backwards could also be used to help such instances happen. You mentioned a "Thessalian backstep" or something? Where did you find it in the sources? We have talked about it in the past but I am not aware of any mentioning of something like that being described as at tactic in primary sources.

Once actually in othismos, there would be no room to step back- the whole file would have to do so in unison. But such a feignt could be used as a man attempted to close with you to begin othismos because the file could be more opened. The Thessalian feignt comes from Euripides description of combat between two men in "the Phoenician women" about line 1415.
Paul M. Bardunias
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#60
Found it right where you said it'd be. Nice description of single combat, although I see how you see it being relevant since the two combatants at the time are shield on shield.

"?????????? ?’ ??????? ????? ???????? ????????’ ????? ?????. ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????’ ??????? ??????", Eur. Phoenissae, 1415

Quote:As I have said before there is no "crowd-stance". There is only a crowd and whatever stance they get into when pushing in unison. What seems to keep getting confused is that my description of what a phalanx would look like when in full othismos is being taken as starting condition for othismos.

Well, they have to have taken some sort of specific actions in order to achieve what you propose. My question to you is how you think that action was terminated. If the protostates saw he was advancing too far, how would he be able to stop this advancement since the reason of this advancement was the pressure exerted on him from the rest of the file? The pressure you describe was not only applied to the enemy but to him too. Do you think that your model can be applied to a line of a thousand files and somehow make the protostates able to control their movement?

Quote:Now if we found a lost text by Xenophon describing side-on pushing in detail, this would pretty much cause me to disbelieve in othismos as we know it. The reason is that a crowd of hoplites face-on can produce, and more importantly survive, pressures that may not have been possible for any other troop type. A phalanx side-on cannot do much that was not also done by a great many other cultures. If hoplites did not do something that a later shield wall could not, then the special designation of "othismos" becomes frivolous, and the phalanx is simply a wall of shields that pushes against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history.

I think that all discussions and theories on othismos are anyways overrated. If othismos was so crucial during battle, if all or even most battles contained a prolonged spell of othismos we would have many more descriptions of how and when it was performed. I really believe that this is also an indirect proof that othismos was just what I described, short spells of pushing (in any stance you want) at certain moments the general would see fit. Of course a file can and will under circumstances even partially (Arrian, Ektaxis kat' Alanon) close up. This does not mean that any real pushing is involved, just supporting the back of the man in front of you. I generally am against any theory that supports a prolonged othismos. All this started when some Western historians tried to make an analogy between ancient Greek battle and American football... Of course the logic behind these theories is laughable but for some reason they permeated current ancient Greek warfare research and now we are looking for how this fabled othismos worked. Most people think that this is how hoplites really fought... A minute of spear fighting and hours of pushing, some even consider spear fighting as practically non-existent since they propose that othismos started from the time the phalanxes charged in... Of course this is not true. Even against the Persians the hoplites did not massively push... they brought down the gerra and stabbed at their enemies... Why should it be something so different from "a wall of shields pushing against its opposite at times an might even find itself acting a bit crowd-like for short periods like every other shield wall in history"? This is what it most possibly was, albeit a bit more organized than some of those other shieldwalls. Maybe the most important reason for all these exaggerations is the fact that whenever anyone sees the word "othizein" or any of its derivatives in a battle description, he automatically links it with "othismos" which, I guess at least 90% of the time is wrong.

Quote:It is not a question of applying a "crowd" to gain one or two steps and reduce pressure, what you describe is what has to occur in a crowd. If you want to advance any faster, you have to link together such steps, which leads to a shuffling advance, but even here the pressure reduces as you advance.

Why should I want to advance any faster? I really think that your proposal does exert the maximum force that can be exerted. I just do not see it explaining how I can keep my ranks in line. Maybe you have a theory on that?

Quote:The transition from doratismos to othismos is one of the most uncertain phases on this type of battle. It is unclear exactly how the lines came together, (piecemeal, all in unison?) or how the foes could counter such a move to keep out of othismos. Obviously it need not happen the same way each time. My feeling is that the only way to avoid othismos is to be willing to give ground, or get some sarissa.

It must have happened orderly as everything else that has to do with the Greek phalanx. I guess that it could be performed both in unison along the phalanx and piecemeal along some units. As for the sarissa, why do you think that it could really counter othismos as you propose it? Do you think that the pressure applied on the hoplon would not be able to force back some sarissas?

Quote:In a true crowd this does not happen because you are all acting too much like one big fluid mass. You would have to really want to do it to make it happen. You touched on the most important thing about overlapping shields, they provide what we call "local information". This is close range, touching, that gives you knowledge of exactly where you are compared to the rank at all times. It is very similar to the type of information used by fish schools and bird flocks to keep such perfect order as they move in groups.

What does not happen? You think that it is impossible for the ranks to break (not keep in line)? As for the overlap providing local information I fully agree with you but in order for it to matter I have to be able to do something about that. If, in your model, I, for any reason, break the line, how can I stop or get back (but I have already asked that)?
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