Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Sarissa \'Coupling Sleeve\'
#16
Most points though that come from Macedonian graves after 400 B.C are like that.

In my opinion that cast doubt for heavy sarissa tips.
Kind regards

And "Werkzeug und Gerät aus Olympia sauroters." translates
"2 iron suroters with different "opening" after the use of different reconstruction methods
electrolyted and thermally treated (impurities thermally removed).
Then thoroughly brushed and varnished.
Below thee are various cast connectors for sauroters not yet found"
Reply
#17
In regards to the problem of growing the trees to a proper length of Sarissa. Why not just prolong growth of a ready grove? It would take half the time; maybe Phillip II had enough forethought for this?
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
Reply
#18
Would a pike in two pieces not be stronger than one made from one? The two shortened lengths give them greater individual tensile strength than one whole one which is bowing from the point that you're holding it, I know similarities have been drawn to the pike of the late medieval and beyond period but I've seen 17th C Pikes made from one piece and they just dangle and wobble around, you could not put an accurate, or powerful thrust in with one, but that makes sense since they were generally used as anti-cavalry weapons, simply to deter the horse while muskets artillery etc shot at each other. When two pike blocks met I'd imagine the majority of injuries came from being trampled, rather than the enemies weapon, the macedonian sarissa was used to take over the known world, in actual battles with heavy casualities so it must have been an effective weapon. I don't believe a macedonian sarissa and, say a pike of the English Civil War period are the same weapon, they worked differently, and they were used differently. Seems perfectly reasonable that a coupling sleeve would be used to give the weapon greater strength.
Stuart
Reply
#19
The main problem I would think of a joint is the stability of the connection. One of my theories is: If the sleeve was simply slid over the one piece shaft to the bend point and the shaft swelled to fit it would be a good reinforcement, no? On the other hand the sleeve could be a joint and the two shafts swelled inside of it but again it is a theory. :?
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
Reply
#20
Could the sleeve not just be narrower than the shaft diameter?

I have a friend who does greeks and macedonian displays at schools, he cant fit a full size sarissa in his van so he has a coupling sleeve to make a long one. It just pushes together, and comes apart (with some pulling) it does not fall apart in use and is solid.
Stuart
Reply
#21
Quote:Could the sleeve not just be narrower than the shaft diameter?

I have a friend who does greeks and macedonian displays at schools, he cant fit a full size sarissa in his van so he has a coupling sleeve to make a long one. It just pushes together, and comes apart (with some pulling) it does not fall apart in use and is solid.

I am a fan of that method myself! My theory as well that once in half the business end of the "sarissa" could be used as a "dory". That would help in the tight spots like on city walls or in the jungles where a "sarissa" might be a little too long. Not having to carry another spear is helpful as well. The problem is we just don't know enough for certain to say "yea" or "nay" :? .
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
Reply
#22
Quote:Would a pike in two pieces not be stronger than one made from one? The two shortened lengths give them greater individual tensile strength than one whole one which is bowing from the point that you're holding it, I know similarities have been drawn to the pike of the late medieval and beyond period but I've seen 17th C Pikes made from one piece and they just dangle and wobble around, you could not put an accurate, or powerful thrust in with one, but that makes sense since they were generally used as anti-cavalry weapons, simply to deter the horse while muskets artillery etc shot at each other. When two pike blocks met I'd imagine the majority of injuries came from being trampled, rather than the enemies weapon, the macedonian sarissa was used to take over the known world, in actual battles with heavy casualities so it must have been an effective weapon. I don't believe a macedonian sarissa and, say a pike of the English Civil War period are the same weapon, they worked differently, and they were used differently. Seems perfectly reasonable that a coupling sleeve would be used to give the weapon greater strength.

The problem is that while the strength of the two halves may be greater, the overall integrity of the shaft is compromised by having such a join around the midpoint unless you have a coupler of significant length and strength, and the Vergina coupler at 17 cm in length is not very large.

Quote:Could the sleeve not just be narrower than the shaft diameter?

I have a friend who does greeks and macedonian displays at schools, he cant fit a full size sarissa in his van so he has a coupling sleeve to make a long one. It just pushes together, and comes apart (with some pulling) it does not fall apart in use and is solid.

I'm sure your friend's two part sarissa works fine for display purposes, but did he make his coupler according to the exact dimensions of the Vergina examples? I doubt that such a weapon would stand up to repeated and intensive use.

Quote:I am a fan of that method myself! My theory as well that once in half the business end of the "sarissa" could be used as a "dory". That would help in the tight spots like on city walls or in the jungles where a "sarissa" might be a little too long. Not having to carry another spear is helpful as well. The problem is we just don't know enough for certain to say "yea" or "nay" :? .

The problem is that many people simply assume that a sarissa made with the Vergina components in two parts with a coupler would both be effective in combat and easily separated and rejoined. This assumption, however, has never been tested.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Reply
#23
I have done some crude experiments with a 16 foot (4.87m) long, 1.5 inches (3.81cm) in diameter, weighing about 7 lbs. (3.17kg), piece of pine wood (which is all I could get my hands on within reasonable cost) and I was amazed at how this 'soft' wood handled. I was able to hold this "sarissa" (it's actually a piece of railing) about a foot from the back end (measuring from my rear hand) without much strain and march/charge for a significant amount of time, raising and lowering the sarissa. There was only slight bending downward when held parallel to the ground. This amazed me considering the nature of pine and its relative softness when compared to a harder wood such as ash. Even without a coupling or center 'stabilizing' piece the sarissa was surprisingly easy to handle and aim at a given target. It was an interesting experiment, albeit not entirely scientific, and gave me some great insight. I recommend that everyone try it out.
Scott B.
Reply
#24
Your 'sarissa' would appear to be slightly oversized, Scott. The supposed 'sarissa sauroter' with flanges had a socket diameter of 34 mm/1.35 inches. The 'coupling' ( and I also am very skeptical of a coupling only some 17.6 cm/7 ins long) had a diameter at one end of 32 mm/1.25 ins. Being pine it is also too light - Connolly's reconstructions, of cornel and ash weighed in at 4.05 kg/8.9 lbs and 4.22 kg/9.3 lbs respectively, and were 5.844m/19.48 ft long - probably the upper end of length.

Still, for handling purposes, and allowing the differences in weight and so on between hard and soft wood, your 'facsimile' sarissa would give an appoximate feel of the real thing, and like Connolly, you have concluded it was reasonably easy to handle..... Smile D
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#25
Quote:Your 'sarissa' would appear to be slightly oversized, Scott. The supposed 'sarissa sauroter' with flanges had a socket diameter of 34 mm/1.35 inches. The 'coupling' ( and I also am very skeptical of a coupling only some 17.6 cm/7 ins long) had a diameter at one end of 32 mm/1.25 ins. Being pine it is also too light - Connolly's reconstructions, of cornel and ash weighed in at 4.05 kg/8.9 lbs and 4.22 kg/9.3 lbs respectively, and were 5.844m/19.48 ft long - probably the upper end of length.

Still, for handling purposes, and allowing the differences in weight and so on between hard and soft wood, your 'facsimile' sarissa would give an appoximate feel of the real thing, and like Connolly, you have concluded it was reasonably easy to handle..... Smile D

I wasn't going for exactness in the measurements or weights. But I'm sure every single sarissa, numbering in the tens and probably hundreds of thousands by the end, did not fit the precise measurements as you list and I'm sure varied by a few millimeters one way or another. And I was thinking of adding some weights along the shaft to give it a little more heft and then see how that feels. Either way, my experiments were more for handling and ease of use, and as you note, resembled Connolly's conclusions.

I, too, am very skeptical about a coupling of only 17.6 cm long. I just don't see how a sarissa, held together by a tiny metal tube, would have enough strength to penetrate a Roman shield and breastplate, the skin of an elephant, or withstand a frontal assault form a charging horse pulling a chariot.
Scott B.
Reply
#26
Personally, the two part sarissa theory doesn't convince me. I think it would have been a sufficiently unusual weapon to warrant a comment by at least one ancient author.

Assuming the sleeve actually belonged to a sarissa these are the two uses I can think of for it:

1. a hand-grip.
2. a support for the shaft at the point (halfway between the point and the holder?) where it was likely to break on impact with the enemy. It might also have reduced vibrations/oscillations on the march?

I personally favour the second one as it would also explain why both ends of the sleeve have a wider diametre than the centre.

Neither suggestion is based on any evidence, historical or scientific, whatsoever. They are just a hunches of mine.

Julian
Reply
#27
Strictly from personal experience.
Please see images on my previous post
Its easier to march carrying the pieces of the sarissa on your shoulder.
It possible for an average individual to handle the large diameter of the weapon.
Easy repair of one part rather than discarding the whole broken weapon is something to consider on campaign.
Most people here offer theories without having a chance to attempt trying the "**@&!" thing.
Most theories offered are very logical but in my opinion they do not stand against testing.
Kind regards
Reply
#28
Stefanos, what was the sarissa shaft made of? What sort of head did you use? Did you make the coupler to the exact dimensions of the Vergina find? How did you secure it to the two portions of the shaft? How long did it take for you to dis- and reassemble it? Did you try submitting the sarissa to stress, like pushing it against a hard target? Did you compare its performance to a solid-shaft example?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Reply
#29
The “Hetairoi” reconstructed initially based on the Vergina findings and measurements of the metallic parts as given in the translated version of late professor Andrinikos
One sarissa was made with the broad big blade found in Philips tomb but the other was made with a narrower blade found in Edessa and exhibited in the Thessloniki museum.
The lower part has 28 mm diameter and tuppers to the “metal coupler”
The second part tuppers even more (19 mm but lessens as it reaches the point)
Total length over 5 meters
I had tried the “broad blade” version in Heunerburg 2009 and I found it an “unwielding beast”
I was also worried about the stability of the coupler but it mostly pscychological
Personally I do not think that this was the sarissa of the time.
The big point was creating balancing problems and the more experienced members of the club thought the same as I though that my problems might be because of my beginners fears over the weapon.

In Gabretta 2010 I tried the narrower blade and most balancing problems were absent.
It took me two days to handle the basics. I believe previous military and de-enacting experience
helped me a lot. I estimate you need 4 days to get over the intimidating size of the weapon
http://s197.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... C04403.jpg
http://s197.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... C04412.jpg
The "coupler" at least in the specimen I used does not need nail holes. Wood was secured firmly in the metal part. Is is possible that rust made the holes to disappear in the original. This has been observed in other iron findings so it is not unlikely.
A third planned sarissa is going to have holes for security nails (perone) but I have stopped worrying about the stability of the coupler

The heavy bat spike helps a lot in handling the "beast".
The picking it up and marching was a bit difficult initially but I insisted to overcome the natural fear of the long pole over my head.
I started advance boldly and confidently.
You cannot move very fast with the sarissa held in a vertical position.
Jogging was tried only for the experience but is risky and you can be unbalanced with unpleasant consequences but a very fast step is possible.
You can move very fast even jog with the sarissa carried in two pieces.

I found the shield (made in the approximate Vegora measurement) a great help in counter balancing
I tried to use the sarissa shoulder height like medieval Swiss and synaspismos was not possible both with hoplite or phalangite shield.

The drill to execute the “proptosis” (sarissa leveling) is done with the sauroter touching the ground.
It helps a lot. The phalanx might have been at its most volunerable at that time.
Its tough to handle but once you get used to it no problem at all.
The upper part can make a very heavy spear in case of an emergency but I would not be happy fighting hoplites with it and the “pelta-shield”.
I could advance rapidly walking at a fast pace and I could dog for less than ten meters with the leveled sarissa.
I found the "alilalai" war-cry as a way of setting your pace in the the last 3 meters before contact -specially if charging on the double.
It must have scared the wits out of the opposition I guess.

The wood pole stress test is going to happen in a couple years when I will own my own specimen and I can destroy it if I please.

I had tried the 16th century pike but it was a item made for a film and I consider my conclusions on it not very reliable.
It did not gave me the same fear "that is would fall on my head" though as the macedonian sarissa did.
Kind regards
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Thumbs Down Those coupling-sleeves again... Condottiero Magno 33 6,785 09-30-2022, 03:52 AM
Last Post: Sean Manning

Forum Jump: