Question about the origin of the Greek hoplite shield

[PMBardunias]

They were flat

If so I would agree with the double grip. Which makes the orientation, opposite that of a boeotian, all the more interesting. Also, if the dimensions can be trusted the "poprpax" would seem to not be in the ceter,like the aspis, but off to the left like many other double-strap grip shields. (Assuming that the porpax-ish handle fits near the elbow.)

[immortal]

Yes, the boss is flat. I would imagine the arm band is in a similar place on the other side, near the elbow as you have suggested.

Its worth noting that these are only carried by Persians, not Medes, so we can rule out their use by cavalry (Medes wear the riding costume).
The fact that the Pesians are wearing the 'Elamite' court robe and wearing garlands may suggest that these sheilds are ceremonial and not intended for combat.

Persepolis in itself can be a problem. While there is little doubt of the accuracy of the depictions, it is not a scene celebrating conflict, but peace.

[Dithrambus]

Just wanted to let you guys know that the OP is still paying attention, I'm along for the ride on this one and it has been very interesting!


Thanks

[PMBardunias]

Here are a few of the Hittite and "Sea People" shields that would seem to be of the same type, but the shape is not so complex that the Median shield cannot have simply been a case of convergence between the two cultures with no shared root. Obviously these have a single grip. Without a domed boss to fit the hand under, a single grip usually requires as robust handle that juts out from the body of the shield- like the Utartian shields I posted on another thread, or a system of two straps held in the same hand as seen on some peltae.

[Thunder]

Interesting. Possibly the Boetian shield was a design like the Pelta and later Thureos, made for the lighter infantry as opposed to the heavier double-grip shield of the hoplites.

[PMBardunias]

Interesting. Possibly the Boetian shield was a design like the Pelta and later Thureos, made for the lighter infantry as opposed to the heavier double-grip shield of the hoplites.

I don't think that they need be "lighter". For example are Roman Triarii, who bear a thureos essentially, lighter than hoplites? I would of course tie the double grip aspis to Othismos, but then that is my schtick. :wink:

[Thunder]

Interesting. Possibly the Boetian shield was a design like the Pelta and later Thureos, made for the lighter infantry as opposed to the heavier double-grip shield of the hoplites.

I don't think that they need be "lighter". For example are Roman Triarii, who bear a thureos essentially, lighter than hoplites? I would of course tie the double grip aspis to Othismos, but then that is my schtick. :wink:

Lighter in terms of formation density at least, and at least most likely in the context of their existence, I would speculate they would be used more by Peltasti-esque medium infantry. Triarii are an exception to the rule, as they were basically hoplites who dropped the hoplite aspis but, unlike most other troops which switched from the aspis to a single-grip shield, stayed as 'heavy' as they had ever bee.

And Triarii bore either the hoplon/aspis/Argive, or the scutum, if I recall correctly. Similiar in design to the thureos, but offering more protection in total.

[PMBardunias]

Triarii are an exception to the rule, as they were basically hoplites who dropped the hoplite aspis but, unlike most other troops which switched from the aspis to a single-grip shield, stayed as 'heavy' as they had ever bee.

You may be right, but the thureos/scutum could be used by troops in formations like the fulcum, a shield wall like a linear tortoise, that was probably denser than anyting that hoplites formed. I merely point out that the shield cannot be reliably used to indicate tactics in this case.

[PMBardunias]

i happened upon this little clay shield from 7th century Cyprus. Note that it has a boss and a central hand-grip and a boss, but interestingly it also seems to have the bands that we see supporting the later porpax.