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Post-Varusschlacht Roman penetrations into Germany?
#1
Salvete omnes,

I'm basically always doing research into Roman interactions with "aboriginal Europe" in some way or another. Right now I'm working on a paper/article about Roman conflict and cooperation across the Rhine specifically. A while ago I remember reading somewhere about a few archaeological sites deep into German territory that appear to show evidence of the Roman army engaging in punitive expeditions as late as the 200s CE, effectively refuting the notion that the Varus disaster was a battle which "stopped Rome in its tracks" as classically portrayed. Unfortunately I can't find the news reports anymore though! Does anyone remember this and can steer me in the right direction? (Note: I'm less interested in the stuff in Niedersachsen... if I remember correctly, the news report I read seemed to suggest the sites were much further east, in Thüringen or Sachsen-Anhalt or something.) Additionally, if there is some kind of academic article about the finds, all the better! I've searched JSTOR but have so far come up empty, although I think that their earliest articles are 3 years old so that would explain the lack of more recent findings.

Anyway, thanks for any and all help on this Big Grin
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#2
Quote:effectively refuting the notion that the Varus disaster was a battle which "stopped Rome in its tracks" as classically portrayed. Unfortunately I can't find the news reports anymore though!
The site is called Hartzhorn; the thread is here; this week, there was news about a similar site called Oldenburg.

However, there is more. Velleius (contemporary) does not refer to a retreat to the Rhine. Also, read Tacitus, who says that "Aliso" (wherever that may have been) remained in Roman hands. The gold mines in the Taunus appear to have remained in Roman hands. There is some evidence of post-9 occupation of Haltern (thread).

I am increasingly convinced that the real evacuation was part of the Claudian Army Reforms. You can quote me on it; the book in which I describe it, will be published next week. There's a summary here. (To be honest, I'm quite happy with that piece of writing.)
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#3
Thanks for the info. I'd like to check out your book, but I'm afraid my Dutch isn't exactly up to the job :wink:
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#4
I will get it, if only to support you and Arjen in being able to buy another beer !! LOL

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#5
Quote:Thanks for the info. I'd like to check out your book, but I'm afraid my Dutch isn't exactly up to the job :wink:
That's why I wrote the summary of the pros and cons.
Quote:I will get it, if only to support you and Arjen in being able to buy another beer !!
That's the best reason to buy a book, to support starving writers.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#6
Quote:
Phaichtos:1vp4l6z2 Wrote:Thanks for the info. I'd like to check out your book, but I'm afraid my Dutch isn't exactly up to the job :wink:
That's why I wrote the summary of the pros and cons.

Yeah I know :wink: I meant that I'd like to be able to read the whole book :mrgreen:
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#7
Josh,
1. ... in these times aother part of archeology is gaining momentum: the archeology of the mines. IIRC some european scholars are in the process of chalking up a list of "spectrographic footprint" of metals/oars found/to be found in certain areas, so it will be easier to spot the whereabouts of roman metal finds.
2. There has been an area of leadsmelting near Soest (D) securely attributed to roman times.
3. In a roman ship found in the delta of river rhone in France there have been lead bars stamped with something like "plumbum germanicum".
4. I can't recall exactly how the ship was dated.
5. Emperor Caracalla (188-217) embarked on a "Germanica expeditio" in 213 AD, reviewed quite infavourably by historian Cassius Dio Cocceianus (ca. 163 - ca. 229 AD) in his 80 volumes of Roman History, being more or less a contemporary of his.
[url:2du2ga3j]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/home.html[/url]
especially here:
[url:2du2ga3j]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/78*.html[/url] >>>> Verse 13 and 14. (Antoninus = Caracalla, Full Title as Emperor: Imperator Caesar Marcus Aurelius Severus Antoninus [Pius Felix] Augustus)
German Scholar and Epigraphic Dr. Andreas Hensen proved Cassius Dio right in that this campaign was more like "flogging a dead horse" (If I may "condense" his writings in EPOC 2/2010 (In German), lasting (at most) from earliest 11th of August to (latest) 6th of October 213AD, that means less than 2 months for ROME-FRONT(Near the german river Main) -ROME --- a very tight schedule for a triumphant war, to put it mildly.
(Rock musicians , if they had such in those times, would most probably have called this "emperor-posing" :wink: )
6. As Kalefeld/Harzhorn and other findingplaces deep inside Germany show -- there may be still a surprise or two "lingering in the woods".
Greez

Simplex
Siggi K.
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