Metal plate beneath Linothorakes or Spolades

[Matthew Amt]

Back on topic, what evidence does this fly in the face of?

Sorry, not this piece in particular, I think I was thinking more about other parts of this discussion, like the idea that warriors typically wore as much armor as they could.

You and I do not believe Sekunda is correct for example, but frankly his scheme is the only one that has actual archaeological evidence behind it!

No, there is proof of the iron cuirass. There is still no evidence for linen covering it, which was his theory (at least his theory that I was referring to!).

Why do we believe that the linothorax was quilted or layered? Largely because medieval armors were quilted and various armors from other cultures show how a proven and effective textile armor can be made in this manner. We have no evidence for it past some images that might show such patterns. And yet I believe this to be the truth based on analogy and functional design alone. For some reason you (you in the broad sense, not just Matt here) disregard analogy with the same cultures in this instance.

Not at all. If the evidence pointed in that direction, I'd be thrilled. But it has not even been reasonably established that this is armor, and even the hopeful archeologist did not mention any organic remains that may have covered it. If either of those two points were established, sure, ancient coat of plates! I could start one tonight (well, I'd like to see a little more of the layout, first!). But the coat of plates is not the only form of medieval armor that has no known relative in the ancient Aegean, so I don't see any reason to assume the existence of something that we have never gotten even an inkling of before. Sticking to what we know has always been my mantra, and I think it's just a logical and safe way to proceed.

You can see in the image above that the coat of plates includes a portion for the upper chest almost exactly as big as this find that is riveted together.

No, that is not a seam, that is a line of rivets for attaching the fabric or leather covering.

As to why use pieces, obviously you can get away with using scraps, making smaller castings, or if using Iron, large plates might have been impossible early on.

Castings? Sheet bronze is made by hammering. Granted, you have to start from a cast piece at some point, but large sheets of bronze had obviously been no problem for over a thousand years. If you're down to scraps, and are hung up on doing things as cheaply and easily as possible (which rarely seemed to concern the ancient Greeks!), scales still make vastly more sense.

As for "hiding" the metal, far too much is made of the showyness of bronze and far too little of the value of high quality linen or fine leather. Obviously any hoplite who sheathed his aspis in bronze could have covered his thorax in thin cosmetic plates if all he wanted to do is glint in the sunlight. We do not have a good grasp on the fashion trends of hoplites, but it is interesting that they move from Corinthian helmets, not to a simple scull cap, but to at least two forms of civilian head w...

I'm sorry, you're losing me. It's as if you're saying that they just had to add secret plates inside their organic armor because their helmets were not covering as much? Sorry, there simply isn't any logical way to debate such shotgun rationalizations. I can't prove that this thing is NOT a hidden bronze reinforcement for a leather or linen cuirass, but some of you guys seem to think that this means your theory is right. I better just bow out.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it actually explicitly says that it penetrated his armour.

DOH! My bad, I didn't go back and check the quote, just swallowed the misinterpretation. Thanks, Ruben!

Heck, too bad he didn't have a couple scraps of bronze riveted together inside his spolas, eh?

Sorry, folks, it's late and I really need to be doing other things. Apologies if I sound snarky...

Matthew