Stilicho and Alaric

[Lothia]

Ave Civitas,

I am doing some research on Alaric the Goth. The books I have read give conflicting reports of Alaric in Thrace and Macedonia.

Some say that Alaric came as a raiding barbarian and another that he was under the command of Rufinus in Constantinople.

Can anyone help me to clarify why Alaric was there, was he under orders from Constantinople, and why did he and Stilicho contend with each other.

I would appreciate if someone could direct me to a book that could help me in my research.

As always, thanks in advance for your assistance.

Me.

[Alanus]

I think you'll find that Alaric was both a raiding barbarian and a general under Rufinus. The plundering fed not only his army but a huge train of Gothic families.

Alaric and the Goths have been covered well by such authors as Jordanes, Gibbon, Wolfram, Kulikowski, Nordgren, Heather, etc. Use Google Booksearch under "Alaric" and "Gothic Wars," then turn to a physical library and you should find plenty of information and interpretations of the various authors, from the old school (Jordanes to Gibbon) to the new ones (Heather, Nordgren, and Kulikowski). Welcome to the study. The Goths were villians and heros, a unique people.

[Astiryu1]

The Goths were also the first of the Barbarian Tribes to adopt Christianity as their main Religion were they not?

[sonic]

Ave Civitas,

I am doing some research on Alaric the Goth. The books I have read give conflicting reports of Alaric in Thrace and Macedonia.

Some say that Alaric came as a raiding barbarian and another that he was under the command of Rufinus in Constantinople.

Can anyone help me to clarify why Alaric was there, was he under orders from Constantinople, and why did he and Stilicho contend with each other.

I would appreciate if someone could direct me to a book that could help me in my research.

As always, thanks in advance for your assistance.

Me.

Hate to blow my own trumpet, but my new book on Stilicho is now out in which I explain Alaric's position and the circumstances surrounding it. It gives my take on events, but I have also tried to include what others have said too.

[url:3dfodz8f]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stilicho-Vandal-Who-Saved-Rome/dp/1844159698/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_cart_1[/url]

[Alanus]

The Goths were also the first of the Barbarian Tribes to adopt Christianity as their main Religion were they not?

Yes, Craig

About 30 years before the Alans and Vandals. It created the great schism between Athanaric and Fritigern, the latter whom Wolfram believed may have been Alaric's uncle. In the early 370's, Fritigern gained the help of the Eastern army (I believe under Junius Soranus), went back into Gothia, challenged Athanaric, and retrieved the bones of the Christian martyrs. In the Gothic church, Fritigern had his own feast day and was remembered along with Saint Saba and others. At one time, he was probably a federate officer. He certainly had pull. And at another time, he could have captured Emperor Theodosius after surrounding his tent. The Gothic story is a great one.

I wrote a novel about Fritigern's early years (the fisher king), along with his future wife (the lady of the lake), and their mentor Merjands (the proclaimer). It was too long to publish by a first-novel author, or so the agents claimed. So it sits gathering dust.

[Robert Vermaat]

The Goths were also the first of the Barbarian Tribes to adopt Christianity as their main Religion were they not?

Yes, Craig
About 30 years before the Alans and Vandals. .

Were they? There were Christians among the Goths that we know of, and in 376 we see a group of Goths converting to Christianity pon gaining admission into the empire as one of the conditions set by the emperor Valens.

'The Goths' never adopted Christianity as one group, as we of course cannot say that 'the Goths' were ever one, self-consious,group to begin with. It's not even clear whether there was any link between the Tervingi and the Visigoths or any other group. The nature of Gothic tribes or subgroups or whatever one wants to define them, was by no means monolithic, and leaders were not all-empowering members of one royal family. I know that what later Gothic history ants us to believe, but such 'hindsight history' is very common in history, and at the time we see similar attempts to 'claim history' by the Anglo-Saxons and the Franks.

[Robert Vermaat]

The Gothic story is a great one.
I wrote a novel about Fritigern's early years (the fisher king), along with his future wife (the lady of the lake), and their mentor Merjands (the proclaimer). It was too long to publish by a first-novel author, or so the agents claimed. So it sits gathering dust.

Publish it on the internet then!!! :wink:

[Astiryu1]

The Gothic story is a great one.
I wrote a novel about Fritigern's early years (the fisher king), along with his future wife (the lady of the lake), and their mentor Merjands (the proclaimer). It was too long to publish by a first-novel author, or so the agents claimed. So it sits gathering dust.

Publish it on the internet then!!! :wink:

Heck Yeah! I'll second that.

[Ron Andrea]

If you have a website or blog, publish the first chapter. If you generate enough buzz, you may interest a publisher.

[Alanus]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the encouragement! I have a son who is studying website construction, so perhaps yes, I might be able to create a site dedicated to the subject.

Robert is correct. I had stated a generalization, and it would be fairer to say that a significant number of Goths were Christians long before the 380 conversions of the Vandals and Alans by Bishop Amantius and his presbyters in Panonnia. Conversions of some Greutungi can be pinpointed 50 years earlier. Ulfilas arrived in Constantinople in the 330s with a group of Christian Greutungi from the Crimea. He descended from a Cappadocian Christian family, back when the Goths raided the Lavant. In the late 340s, when Ulfilas was already first bishop of the Gothic Church, he was converting the Tyrfingi in "Gothia," east of Walachia. This created a schism serious enough that Athanaric's father Aoric conducted the first Christian persecution. With the aid of Emperor Constantinus, a portion of the Christian Tyrfingi refugees were relocated in the Balkans.

But not all the Christians left Gothia, and twenty years later Athanaric conducted a second purge just after his defeat by Valens. This is the confusing yet historical period of Junius Soranus and Fritigern, at least five years prior to the 376 crossing of the Ister by Fritigern's people. The old saw, claiming that Valens stipulated conversion at this time, does not bear out. (No part of that treaty is now extant.) Previously, Fritigern had enough pull to lead Roman soldiers against Athanaric during what had to be the latter persecution, exactly the same time that Soranus (obviously with Fritigern) recovered the bones of the martyrs, Saint Saba, Inna, Pina, and a couple of others, and brought them to the Church elders in Cappedocia. From this, we know that many Tyrfingi-- perhaps half-- were butting head to head and already Arian Christians prior to the crossing.

However, we cannot equate the Tyrfingi with the Visigoths, and likewise the Ostrogoths with the Greutungi. These were seperate entities in seperate times. In recent years, the psudo-history of Jordanes has come under full-blown attack by modern historians. True, his early chapters are incorrect and fictional, but his general treatment of Greutungic history appears to be valid. Criticised by Kulikowski, this history is beginning to be validated by new archaeological discoveries along the river Samara, and Jordane's "Greutungi Kingdom" may have almost extended to the Urals.

Out of these wrenchings, including the Dogmeat Scheme, emerged Alaric, a man who never intended to conquer Rome or reduce it to subjugation. We oft forget that the Goths were multicultural, that they were a valid political entity, that they towed families of perhaps 250,000 people wherever they went. All those purple skins, the shining gold, the valued pepper, "liberated" from Roman hands, were then traded for food and clothing for this rag-tag multitude of people. This story-- from Fritigern to Athaulf-- is the highlight humanistic tale of the late Imperial period.

I apologize for being long-winded. :oops: