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\'The myth of Celtic and Roman Britain\'
#31
And then there is Greek.......
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#32
I always had a problem defining "Normal" I just know I am not it. Big Grin
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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#33
"As for me, it was all Greek."
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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#34
Quote:I just know that our languages are Indo European as i remember correctly and that Farsi or Persian would be Indo Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... anTree.svg

Tongue

M.VIB.M.

As far as I know, Farsi (originally Parsi) and Persian are considered as Indo-Iranian languages, a major portion of the Indo-European group. Where did you find "Indo Germanic?" Wikipedia?
But then again, maybe they are part of "Indo-Formorian," traced back to Spain and then to Iran... by way of Brennus Pass and Hyperboria. :lol:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#35
Quote:
MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS:1jaz5pts Wrote:I just know that our languages are Indo European as i remember correctly and that Farsi or Persian would be Indo Germanic.
As far as I know, Farsi (originally Parsi) and Persian are considered as Indo-Iranian languages, a major portion of the Indo-European group. Where did you find "Indo Germanic?" Wikipedia?
You're both right and wrong. Farsi and Persian is the same language, but it does not belong to the Indo-Germanic group, but the Indo-Iranian group (as does Ossetian btw Alan, the Ossetians being desendants of the Alans). HJ is correct that our languages (Dutch, German, English) belong to the Indo-Germanic group, and both the Indo-Iranian and the Indo-Germanic group are subgroups of the larger Indo-European group.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#36
Quote:There is something pretty unsavoury about it all - claims about blood and belonging are seldom motivated by strictly historical concerns.

- Nathan

This is very true. It actually saddens me that so many people who are "interested" in things like aboriginal Europe (one of my primary interests) are in it just because they believe that "white people" are superior to everybody else. Luckily, people like this tend to be walking counterpoints to their own assertions of "white superiority", but it does tend to cast a shadow of guilt by association at times.


Quote:Actually serious scholars have linked the language forms of Ireland and northern Spain. (I've not heard anyone seriously link them to Israel.) Don't know whether that theory is currently in fashion. Since it's more than fifteen minutes old, I suspect it's out. :roll:

One assertion in the debate about the Celtishness of Britain is that Brythonic was so different from Gaelic. There are many theories which use that issue to both defend or refute the Celt credentials of the Britons.

Actually, I've recently been looking into the work of Barry Cunliffe (a well-respected archaeologist) and in particular in his Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples, 8000 BC to AD 1500 he points out the overt similarities between many of the peoples of "Atlantic Europe" as opposed to the normal north-south clines we tend to think of when it comes to "the natives". I'm no expert on aboriginal (or modern, for that matter) Spain myself, but it actually wouldn't surprise me much if 1) the language of modern northern Spain shows some traces of a Celtiberian substrate (isn't this region still called "Galicia"?) and 2) that given the location of Spain and Ireland on the Atlantic fringe, if there weren't some sort of genetic interchange in the past. I would pause before using any of the pseudo-racial arguments that have been put forth in our dark past (for instance, that the alleged "swarthiness" of the Welsh is due to an admixture of Spaniards or even Phoenicians), but that still doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of interchange in prehistory.
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#37
A connectedness among the coastal peoples facing the Atlantic seems perfectly reasonable, whether it actually happened or not is less certain. There's certainly circumstantial evidence.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
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#38
Quote:A connectedness among the coastal peoples facing the Atlantic seems perfectly reasonable, whether it actually happened or not is less certain. There's certainly circumstantial evidence.

Fair enough! I do have to say though that I could certainly imagine it being much, much easier for Atlantic Europeans to stay in periodic contact with one another than it would be for their brethren deeper into the continent's interior. Even the Romans absolutely preferred doing trade by ship as opposed to overland whenever at all possible, and they nevertheless built an expansive road network much of which is still extant today Big Grin . Travel overland was simply too dangerous and time consuming for most ancient folks to be bothered with, it seems.
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#39
It is much easier to carry large "shipments" by ship. :wink:

A good example is:
a backpack full of camping gear while hiking
as opposed to:
the same gear loaded on a canoe or kayak

Which lets you travel farther,faster and easier?

I have heard of small river crafts used by Romans and Barbarian tribes alike but don't know any specifics. Can't be much different to other small boats though...right?
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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#40
Totally agreed. My point though is that even the Romans who for much of their history were essentially landlubbers saw the ease and necessity of transport by water; for residents of ancient Atlantic Europe, travel by water would have made just as much if not more sense. Hence, I don't think it is crazy to assume that some kind of connection between ancient northern Spain and Ireland occurred , whereas contact between northern Spain and geographically closer regions in say central Gaul were more problematic and less frequent.
"...atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant."

????? ???? ?\' ?????...(J. Feicht)
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#41
The pesky problems of bandits, slave-traders, frozen mountain passes, etc. do pose a problem. :wink: Even then you would have diplomats, priests/shamans?, and similar non combatants like bards/skalds etc. that generally would be left alone right?

These types of travelers would be good examples of cultural progenitors. Big Grin
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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#42
Quote:Totally agreed. My point though is that even the Romans who for much of their history were essentially landlubbers saw the ease and necessity of transport by water; for residents of ancient Atlantic Europe, travel by water would have made just as much if not more sense. Hence, I don't think it is crazy to assume that some kind of connection between ancient northern Spain and Ireland occurred , whereas contact between northern Spain and geographically closer regions in say central Gaul were more problematic and less frequent.

Not just sea-borne interaction between Spain and Ireland, but also southwestern Britain (to sneak the original subject in) where we find Tacitus' "swarthy" Silures. And it does seem to stop in coastal-central Gaul at Burgidalia and its major river. Beyond this point we have Biturigia, an extension of a central Gallic tribal group. Ausonius-- a son of Bordoux-- once said his childhood nanny was called "Maura" due to her dark features.

Transportation by water was accomplished up and down rivers, not just the ocean or "frog pond," and we see this particularly in routes that extended from the Rhine, then across a short portage, to the Danube and then on down to the Black Sea. From the Black Sea, we went north upon rivers to the Baltic along the "Amber Road." All of it connected people in far more than just trade goods. Big Grin
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#43
Craig,

You and I were typing at the same time. Confusedhock:
Yup. Oceans and rivers were the safer and quicker routes that produced ports like pre-Roman Londinium. Land routes were far more dangerous. Even in the much-maligned Victorian era, so-called "explorers" and adventurers were picked-off in the high passes along the Silk Road. The Road was the worst of it. Indic gemstones, for instance, once having reached north of the trade road, were then carried down the Syr Drya, then hopped across two waterways to the Pontus Euxine and up the Ister into north-western Europe. These gemstones were sprinkled throughout artworks and swords in the socalled "Migration-era" products.
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#44
I have read about the many cultures that used rivers for travel,trade and navigation even while on foot. I think this is largely overlooked due to the Roman Road system. I know the cultures in the Karelian Peninsula had something like a "war canoe" but I forgot where I saw it. I just don't hear much about "Celtic" or "Gallic" boats but they had them according to some artwork. How would they travel to England, Ireland and the Faeroes otherwise?
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
Reply
#45
The Celts were great sailors and fisherman. I've mentioned that I have a Celtic tuna hook, also have a shark hook made at the same forge. The Gallic word for "captain" was "moritex," and the Veneti were famous in cross-channel navigation. I imagine a lot of their river boats were like barges.

By the way, what is the Myth of Celtic and Roman Britain? Was it a myth. Or was it a legend. Or was it actuality? :roll:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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