\'The myth of Celtic and Roman Britain\'

[Thunder]

I was agreeing with you. If you'd rather, I'll disagree. :wink:

Either's good with me. Go with your conscience.

[Ron Andrea]

I'm good.

[Alanus]

I'm good.

Ah! that's good. 8)

[zakhx150]

On the 'celtic paradigm', check out James, S. 1999 The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention?

[cagwinn]

On the 'celtic paradigm', check out James, S. 1999 The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention?

Uggg...James is terrible.

[LvpvsRomanvs]

I have been musing of late that I should look a liitle further in to Druids & such. So far I have mused on links with British Druids & Gaulish ones ...

Ceasar (Julius) has it that they were very important types who were consulted widely by society (though with some very unsavoury habits ...praise from Ceasar is praise indeed :wink: ) and that they met annually in the trerritory of the Carnutes, supposedly the centre of Gaul and that the religion originated in Britian, where young men woulds go to study. Some time later the Isle of Anglesea was raided and Druidic sacred groves were cut down along with as many Druids as could be laid low with a gladius. There was a Pope type Druid who headed them all so there appear not to be separate "chuches".

If indeed the Druids originated in Britain and that Anglesea was the Druidic Mecca and that Druids from both Britain and Gaul met within Carnutian territory annually, then maybe there was an overarching cohesion amongst the Iron Age folk of Gaul and Britain, a central identity based on religion?

This idea of unification through religion is a good theory. When Celtic tribes did unify in war it was the druids that selected the leader of the war-party. Examples could be Caractacus leading the British tribal resistance, and Vercingetorix leading the Gallic tribes. This was a theory put forward in Graham Webster in his 'Rome Against Caratacus'. I'll try and get the quote when I get home.

It is well known that the druids that resented Rome the most. Once the Romans had gained a foothold in Britain it was the druids that encouraged and unified the resistance. Perhaps what unified these tribes was the utmost respect that more or less every tribe shared for these religious leaders. Not only were the druids religious leaders, but they had a hand in politics as well. Could it be said that it was druids that wielded the real power?

[Robert Vermaat]

This idea of unification through religion is a good theory. When Celtic tribes did unify in war it was the druids that selected the leader of the war-party.

Do we have any sources for this assumption? Afaik, caratacus and Boudicca were respected on their own behalf and were neither 'seleted' by druids. Besides, was there even any mention of 'unified' druids? Was there in your opinion a 'druidic synod' which selected such leaders? I think that much of this goes back either to Julius Caesar's political/mistaken opinions, or 19th century fiction.

[LvpvsRomanvs]

This idea of unification through religion is a good theory. When Celtic tribes did unify in war it was the druids that selected the leader of the war-party.

Do we have any sources for this assumption? Afaik, caratacus and Boudicca were respected on their own behalf and were neither 'seleted' by druids. Besides, was there even any mention of 'unified' druids? Was there in your opinion a 'druidic synod' which selected such leaders? I think that much of this goes back either to Julius Caesar's political/mistaken opinions, or 19th century fiction.

There are no direct sources that I know of on this matter. Perhaps you are correct to say that this may go back to the opinions of Caesar and the 19th century. But surely the position of leader could not have simply just been attained through strength of character. These armies would have had been a multitude of tribes and chieftains. There must have been a higher authority selecting these leaders in order to prevent inner conflict over who would lead the army. What better authority to do this than the druids?

[Robert Vermaat]

There must have been a higher authority selecting these leaders in order to prevent inner conflict over who would lead the army. What better authority to do this than the druids?

I'm not so comfortable with conclusions like 'there must have been', that way we end up concluding that megaliths were built by giants, and so on.. :wink:
How was Vercingetorix made to become the leader of the Gauls resisting Caesar? Boudicca led her own tribe on the basis of her social position, and other tribes followed. Caratacus was the leader of the most powerful British tribe, and somehow his status as a warrior (albeit dfeated) seems to have been strong enough to find other tribes willing to fight the Romans (although he did not lead them). In all of these cases, we really don't know what the support (if any) of the priesthood was. Maybe they were bound to the tribe rather than an druid 'church' or something?

[Matthew Amt]

Weren't these leaders hereditary? The ruler's son becomes the next ruler. UNLESS some other (reasonably) close relative is stronger-willed and has built up his own base of loyal followers and usurps power. Boudica led because she was married to the late king, and was VERY strong-willed! Obviously charisma played a large role in influence over other tribes, and we know that there were some strong rulers and some weak ones. But my understanding was that it was basically arranged by heredity (though I seem to remember some passage about elections among nobles or something, help!).

Matthew

[cagwinn]

Julius Caesar personally knew and was friendly with at least one Druid - as was Cicero (and likely other notable Romans at that time, some of whom might have complained about Caesar's account, if they thought it contained blatant falsities). There is little reason to believe that anything he says about the Druids (some of which he could also have drawn from Posidonius, who traveled among the Gauls and wrote a now-lost ethnography on them) is grossly distorted, or even completely made up by him. As a general, it would have greatly aided him to be quite familiar with the Gaulish social order (how could he so effectively have conquered the Gauls if he didn't know how its society functioned at the upper echelons?) and there were plenty of Gaulish allies who could provide the necessary details (don't forget that many Roman citizens in Cisalpine Gaul were of Celtic heritage and, though they had been Romanized for some time, still would have remembered some traditions and stories about the Celtic great-grandparents. As a pontifex, Caesar himself had religious training, so he was not just some ignorant soldier repeating half-understood rumors about the enemies witch doctors.

Anyway, Dio Chrysostom was another one who suggested that the Druids actually ruled the Gauls:
[url:1000ucj5]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Dio_Chrysostom/Discourses/49*.html[/url]
7. Furthermore, since they cannot always be ruled by kings who are philosophers, the most powerful nations have publicly appointed philosophers as superintendents and officers for their kings. Thus the Persians, methinks, appointed those whom they call Magi, because they were acquainted with Nature and understood how the gods should be worshiped; the Egyptians appointed the priests who had the same knowledge as the Magi, devoting themselves to the service of the gods and knowing the how and the wherefore of everything; the Indians appointed Brachmans, because they excel in self-control and righteousness and in their devotion to the divine, as a result of which they know the future better than all other men know their immediate present; 8 the Celts appointed those whom they call Druids, these also being devoted to the prophetic art and to wisdom in general. In all these cases the kings were not permitted to do or plan anything without the assistance of these wise men, so that in truth it was they who ruled, while the kings became are servants and the ministers of their will, though they sat on golden thrones, dwelt in great houses, and feasted sumptuously.

Most of the other relevant sources can be found on the web easily (if any of you have not read them yet) - even the new-agers have started posting the translations online (with links to the original texts):
[url:1000ucj5]http://www.morien-institute.org/kendrick.html[/url]

Judge for yourselves the role that the druids played in pagan Celtic society.