Ambigatus, King of Gauls

[Brennus]

In Livy's histories of Rome, He mentions a King named Ambigatus, and under his rule the Celts flourished, food was plentiful, and the King was held in highest esteem. Faced with overpopulation, he sent his sister's sons, Bellovesus and Segovesus, towards northern Italy for new land. Is it possible that there was ever a King that held such sway in Gaul? If such a character did actually exist, this must have been a prosperous Golden Age for the Gauls. Or could he be a legend that the Gauls developed and was passed on to Livy? Could this be the closest thing we have to a surviving Gaulish myth or legend?

[Epictetus]

I don’t know if these named people who originally led their followers into the Po Valley are viewed as historical individuals. In the excellent The Beginnings of Rome T.J. Cornell calls Bellovesus “legendary” but says “Livy’s description of the Celtic occupation of the Po valley may be correct in general terms…”

In regards to migration because of overpopulation, I think practically all scholars accept this scenario as plausible. Forsythe in A Critical History of Early Rome says the “marauding and overpopulation went hand in hand in enlarging the territorial extent of Celtic culture and settlement… their plundering incursions often paved the way for more peaceful immigration and settlement; the Po Valley of northern Italy is perhaps the best example of this phenomenon.” (Note that he is a modern critical historian and distrusts much of these early stories. He doesn't even think the individual names deserve to be mentioned. :wink: )

The Greek and Roman writers that we use for this information gathered their stories from a variety of sources. Many (if not all!) Italian cities had a complex foundation mythology and Cato in The Origins detailed quite a few of these. Perhaps this story ultimately came from the Gauls themselves, but I think we just don’t know.

[Alanus]

The over-population scenario does seem possible. We even have the Gauls venturing into Greece where they pillaged the Temple at Olympus... and the Greeks denied it, claiming thunder drove the Gauls away. And then a sector of these raiders crossed into the Levant and eventually formed the province of Galatia... which gave someone for the disciple Paul to write to. Otherwise, the Bible would be shorter by one long letter. :lol:

[Ron Andrea]

At least they knew how to hold on to a letter, something their Laodicean neighbors flunked. :wink:

[Alanus]

At least they knew how to hold on to a letter, something their Laodicean neighbors flunked. :wink:

The Galatians probably framed it, dry-mounted and gilded, passing it down from father to son (no women, of course). :roll:

[Ron Andrea]

Oh, for sure. The church at Ephesus was reported to have worshipped (basically) an autograph (that is, a copy in his own handwriting) John's gospel. (About AD 300)

Sooner or later, anything associated with religious figures become religious articles themselves. Relics.

[Alanus]

For sure, Ron

Probably in the same manner, this King Ambigatus grew "larger than life," although I think there were actually men who became king of more than one tribe. I think of the father of Vercingetorix, who was killed for such ambitions.

[Ron Andrea]

Agree. As time passes everyone seems to get either larger or smaller. We only hear about the larger ones.

The other possibility is that several people are sometimes melded into a composite who's identified by one of their names or some different name altogether.

[Rumo]

I don’t know if these named people who originally led their followers into the Po Valley are viewed as historical individuals. In the excellent The Beginnings of Rome T.J. Cornell calls Bellovesus “legendary” but says “Livy’s description of the Celtic occupation of the Po valley may be correct in general terms…”

In regards to migration because of overpopulation, I think practically all scholars accept this scenario as plausible. Forsythe in A Critical History of Early Rome says the “marauding and overpopulation went hand in hand in enlarging the territorial extent of Celtic culture and settlement… their plundering incursions often paved the way for more peaceful immigration and settlement; the Po Valley of northern Italy is perhaps the best example of this phenomenon.” (Note that he is a modern critical historian and distrusts much of these early stories. He doesn't even think the individual names deserve to be mentioned. :wink: )

Certainly not all scholars. Read this.

[Alanus]

Well, for certain Danijel Dzino didn't. And as the epitome of modernity, he made some astute and correct points.

Whether overpopulation went in hand with the supposed "Celtic" invasions of the Po Valley is uncertain and debatable. BUT we cannot say that these warriors were "not Celts." They were recorded as having Celtic fighting tactics. They dressed or undressed like Celts, aka rude-ala-ca-nude. They had Celticsh' names (like so many of the Cimbri). In my opinion, if it has feathers like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck... then chances are it IS a duck.

We have gone over this argument before (Rumo and I) is association with the Goths. Certainly, no ethicity is 100 percent pure (except in Hitler's mind); but this Brennus guy was probably Celtic, or had a Celtic grandmother, or at least knew a guy who once talked to a real Celt. Whatever their reason for these marauding forays, and whether or not they were actually want-to-be mercenaries, they undertook a real journey and continued eastward across the Bosphorus and settled as Galatians. Therefore they even towed their women and children (which sounds a lot like "migration.") And if they were not Celts, they were 100 percent impersonators in language and customs. 8)

[Astiryu1]

Whether overpopulation went in hand with the supposed "Celtic" invasions of the Po Valley is uncertain and debatable. BUT we cannot say that these warriors were "not Celts." They were recorded as having Celtic fighting tactics. They dressed or undressed like Celts, aka rude-ala-ca-nude. They had Celticsh' names (like so many of the Cimbri). In my opinion, if it has feathers like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck... then chances are it IS a duck.

I think the "Thureos" has many similarities with "Celtic" shields. Just to point out something fairly obvious. :wink:

[Alanus]

hello, Craig

Some historians (not Wilson & Blackett) believe the thureos extended (as in borrowed) from the Galatian shield. And coincidentally, or maybe not, the same basic design shows up as the Battersea Shield as dredged from a river in Britain... not to say that it might be Celtic, or that Celtic was an actual culture, or that Galatians might have been Celtic, or that the Britians could have feasibly have been kinda-sorta like Celtic... :roll:

For some strange unknownst reason, the same shields show up in the Crimea, where (for whatever-reason-or-other) Galatian warriors were also employed as mercenaries. Coincidence is a marvelous thing. BUT, as we all know, there never was a Celtic culture, simply a demented figment of the Victorian mind. :wink:

[Astiryu1]

That sounds really complicated... or there is the simple answer!!!
La Tene(and other small variations)= Celtic

At least in most contemporary histories there is a HUGE similarity! 8)

[Rumo]

They were recorded as having Celtic fighting tactics. They dressed or undressed like Celts, aka rude-ala-ca-nude. They had Celticsh' names (like so many of the Cimbri). In my opinion, if it has feathers like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck... then chances are it IS a duck.

If my name would be Robert or John or James, I'd wear jeans, eat burgers, drink coke, etc that would make me a .... ? Oh no, that's a stereotype! Why do we observe it only when it's about modern identities and cultures, about things offending us? Why do we keep discussing about ancients like they'd be some Middle-Earth inhabitants? That guy had a La Tène sword, he must have been a Celt. Oh really?

[Alanus]

There is a difference and you know it. :evil:
Celtic dress, habits, fighting styles, were different from Germanic, Roman, etc. You are aware of this, as is anyone who has studied history as much as you have. And using generic examples like burgers and trousers, or in fact the possession of two eyes, is not the same thing. 8)