Rome and Ireland

[eugene]

Did Romans tried to invade Ireland?

[Nathan Ross]

Did Romans tried to invade Ireland?

No. :wink:

But some of them probably thought about it... There's a thread on the subject here:

Hibernia

- Nathan

[Jona Lendering]

Did Romans tried to invade Ireland?

We don't know. Tacitus writes that Agricola contemplated it and there is no source that mentions an invasion. But one excavation can change the entire picture.

[Brennus]

Finn MacCumhaill and his Fianna defeated early Roman landings on Irish shores so savagely that the Romans never returned in numbers. :wink:

[ParthianBow]

I heard that the legions stopped at the first pub and drank so much Guinness that they were in no fit state to fight the Irish when they arrived. There was a bloody retreat back to their fleet, leavened only by a quick stop at an off licence to buy more stout :lol:

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

A few years ago there was a report of an excavation of an alleged Roman fort in Ireland IIRC. Can't recall any details though

[Nathan Ross]

A few years ago there was a report of an excavation of an alleged Roman fort in Ireland IIRC. Can't recall any details though

The alleged fort is at Drumanagh. It's never been properly excavated as far as I know, and no military items were found there, and it certainly appears to be an iron age promontory fort rather than a Roman construction. But that hasn't stopped people making guesses about it...

There's about as much info as you're going to get here, together with a plan of the site:

Drumanagh Promontory Fort

- Nathan

[Caratacus]

I believe that Tacitus says somewhere in the "Agricola" that his pa-in-law contemplated invading Ireland and thought that he could do it 'with a single legion'! Hmmm? Neat trick, if you can pull it off. No, I've no idea where he says this - but I do remember reading it!

I would not be surprised if some Romans made it to Ireland, being blown off course somewhere in the Irish Channel. Given the Roman predeliction for throwing up a defensive camp at night, I would imagine that an earthwork would be constructed if something like this were to happen. Very little of such an encampment would be visible now - you would have to hit it dead on in a dig.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[Jona Lendering]

I have frequently heard him assert, that a single legion and a few auxiliaries would be sufficient entirely to conquer Ireland and keep it in subjection; and that such an event would also have contributed to restrain the Britons, by awing them with the prospect of the Roman arms all round them, and, as it were, banishing liberty from their sight.

Tacitus, Agricola 24.3

[Caratacus]

Thanks, Jona! I just KNEW that I had read it in there somewhere! Some years back now, though.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[M. Demetrius]

A single legion? that sounds a little overly optimistic to me, but I wasn't there at the time, so -- :?
Three legions, probably. Not much room to hide from that many soldiers. Maybe after conquest, one could be sent back....

[Jona Lendering]

A single legion? that sounds a little overly optimistic to me

It was not very densely populated. It might have worked.

[Theodosius the Great]

A single legion? that sounds a little overly optimistic to me

I think whenever legions are mentioned it is usually implied that they were supplimented by an equivalent number of auxiliaries. In this case the force would amount to ten thousand men. At least, I think that's how modern scholars interpret the sources. Legions, AFAIK, rarely fought by themselves.

A single legion? that sounds a little overly optimistic to me

It was not very densely populated. It might have worked.

Umm...isn't that the other way around ? The more densely populated the easier it is to control them ? I thought that was a major reason why Scotland was never conquered - no major population centers. I think what you meant to say is that it wasn't heavily populated.

Spain, for example, with its far greater area and population than Ireland in this period was 'held' by a single legion (with some auxiliaries). But the Roman process of urbanization had greatly accelerated in the peninsula which, I think, allowed the other three legions to be safely transferred to other provinces. Vespasian granted Latin rights to the whole of the peninsula in recognition of it's heavily municipalized status (and in recognition of supporting the winner in the civil war).

~Theo

[Caratacus]

As good old Septimius Severus found out in Caledonia, it isn't easy to subjugate an area when there are no urban centres and there is no single person in charge to attack and defeat. Conquering one small tribe in one valley will do you no good at all in the next valley! I would imagine (although I have no particular knowledge of this, I have to admit) that Ireland would have been somewhat the same. Even if a large 'Irish' army could have been defeated in battle, they would simply have evaporated into the mists afterwards and carried out the classic guerilla warfare that we are all so familiar with (I think they call is "Asymmetric Warfare" these days).

The other thing that springs to mind is that the Romans were very bad about geography (having no sat-nav available!) Caesar himself thought that the island of Britain (which he was unaware was an island) was off the coast of Spain somewhere. I have little doubt that Agricola had no real idea of the size of Ireland and where the land mass actually was!

Even if he had managed to conquer the place, Domitian would have wisked the legions back for the mess he was making in Dacia!

One of the reasons often given for the Roman invasion of Britain was that they (the Romans) thought that these islands were dripping with mineral resources. There was a certain amount of lead, tin, silver, iron and gold here, but probably not enough to repay the costs of the invasion and subsequent 400 years of occupation. If they had invaded and conquered Ireland, I think they would have been even more disappointed as, apart from some stunning scenery, there isn't much else there for the taking!

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[Robert Vermaat]

As good old Septimius Severus found out in Caledonia, it isn't easy to subjugate an area when there are no urban centres and there is no single person in charge to attack and defeat. Conquering one small tribe in one valley will do you no good at all in the next valley!

I don't know if good old Septimus even meant to subjugate the next valley. He may have been wanting to show off, conquering 'from Persia to Britannia'...

One of the reasons often given for the Roman invasion of Britain was that they (the Romans) thought that these islands were dripping with mineral resources. There was a certain amount of lead, tin, silver, iron and gold here, but probably not enough to repay the costs of the invasion and subsequent 400 years of occupation. If they had invaded and conquered Ireland, I think they would have been even more disappointed as, apart from some stunning scenery, there isn't much else there for the taking!

Which may be the very reason that the Romans did not bother in the first place.