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Well, i can't argue about that point as i have no sources to consult out here.
But, I would think a wedge moving into such a massive formation would be just as easily surrounded, as a series of smaller wedges would be broken up.
Needless to say, Paulinus won the day, Boudicca lost.....whatever they actually did.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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Quote:Well, i can't argue about that point as i have no sources to consult out here.
But, I would think a wedge moving into such a massive formation would be just as easily surrounded, as a series of smaller wedges would be broken up.
Needless to say, Paulinus won the day, Boudicca lost.....whatever they actually did.
Well said! :wink:
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Mark Hayes
"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades
"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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Deliberate One Cohort Wedge: Leading Century forms deliberate wedge remaining centuries of the cohort follow closely behind.
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As an offensive tactic it would be possible for the following centuries to wheel left and right upon penetrating the enemy formation and attacking the enemy rear often resulting in an undisciplined enemy fleeing.
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Quote:As an offensive tactic it would be possible for the following centuries to wheel left and right upon penetrating the enemy formation and attacking the enemy rear often resulting in an undisciplined enemy fleeing.
Flee into where? The waiting "arms" of the legionaries or the carts barring their retreat? 
I always believed that in a deep formation the rear could roll up from behind! I would think it could be practiced somewhat per unit. I wish the general's of the time had to give documented battle reports for military study. :x Even if as simple as a short written description with (American) football like scribbles the evidence would be astounding.
Craig Bellofatto
Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin Terminology 
It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee
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I have recently read: 'The book of the sword' by Sir Richard Burton. He states that the wedge/Keil formation was used by several cultures (page 273), including Greek, Roman, German and Scandinavian. Schweinskopf in German, Svinfylking of Scandinavia (they attributed it's invention to Odin). Burton also states that it was used at the Battle of Hastings by the Normans.
Also mentioned by Burton: Asclepiodotus (vii. 3) and Aelian (xviii. 4) as describing the cuneus as Scythian and Thracian respectively.
Not sure about these references and they do not refer to the 'sawtooth' discussed here, just thought I would throw em into the mix. 
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Mark Hayes
"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades
"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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Quote:He states that the wedge/Keil formation was used by several cultures (page 273), including Greek...
Only cavalry formed "wedges", and then not Greeks or Thessalians who used square and Rhomboid fomations. A wedge of Hoplites has been postulated for the theban formation at Mantinea based on a too literal reading of a word that Xenophon used to describe the mass of men that also denotes the ram of a ship. This is surely nonsense, as a wedge of hoplites, each rank presenting an unshielded right flanker to the foes is a good way to lose a battle.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:Quote:He states that the wedge/Keil formation was used by several cultures (page 273), including Greek...
Only cavalry formed "wedges", and then not Greeks or Thessalians who used square and Rhomboid fomations. A wedge of Hoplites has been postulated for the theban formation at Mantinea based on a too literal reading of a word that Xenophon used to describe the mass of men that also denotes the ram of a ship. This is surely nonsense, as a wedge of hoplites, each rank presenting an unshielded right flanker to the foes is a good way to lose a battle.
Burton, who was certainly an intelligent man (spoke 29 languages for example) an experienced duelist with the sword and very well travelled, does seem to have quite an imagination.
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Mark Hayes
"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades
"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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This thread is about the sawtooth and not the wedge, so I'm going to stick with sawtooth and ignore the wedge because its a different tactic. I'm pretty sure I figured it out and I was searching the net to confirm my feeling, but I didn't find any proof. This forum was the best thing I could find on the topic.
I bet they used the sawtooth and I bet it was one of their best formations. The reason why it was so effective is the reason why people do not understand it. It is pure genius. The formation probably had more teeth than depicted in the History Channel's animation. With more teeth it brought teeth. I'm not going to give it away because I want to see if someone else comes to the same conclusion. I think the sawtooth is what brought down Boudicca. Also, I think she is one of my great grandmothers. When I first saw the History Channel's Boudicca show around 2006, her story resonated with me. I've seen about a half dozen acient world history shows like Boudicca's that resonate with me.
Mark Hayes, it wouldn't surprise me that we are not to distant cousins. My grandmother was a Haynes and it was also spelled Hayes, Haines and Haint a few generations before her. I don't have proof, it is just a feeling that my Haynes line are decendents from Roman Emperor Hadrian. The history books say he had no children, but I think they are wrong because I can feel it. My reasoning for not invading Afgahnistan after 9/11 was along the lines of the reasoning behind Hadrian's Wall. You cannot win against the an "uncivilized" people. Before the Afghanistan War, I said we would be in a decade long quagmire and I have plenty of witnesses. I was like a chicken running around with its head cut off trying to wake people up.
I don't have the ultimate proof that I am the grandson of some of the greatest leaders of the past. I have the cheap DNA geneology test that appears to match up with the profile of a distant cousin. I believe my feelings come from personallity traits. When I hear about some of the great leaders of the past they resonates with me and their actions sound like something I would think of.
There are probably a few others of you on this forum who are the grandkids of Roman Emperors. It would explain your interest in the subject. I know one of you can figure it out. Just assume that the sawtooth was used when pondering it. I might be wrong, but the one person I told thought I nailed it. It is also completely possible I am not related to any of these historical figures. I do take that into account.
P.S. Does anyone know which company provides the most detailed DNA geneology results on historical relatives for a decent price?
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off topic but here goes, dna entry level best is still probably ftdna. I say this having tried several other (Nat Geo and Oxford Ancestors) greatest strength is their data base of links. You get a list of your nearest matches many with emails so you can easily connect and take your project as far as you want;
www.familytreedna.com
good luck but be warned it can take you to some unexpected places, like RAT for example.
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Hah yes John I agree. Sometimes it's better not to know lol. Most of all our ancestors (including those of royalty) were the rabble rousers and common as muck people.
Jim
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off topic again (sorry) if this is the case for descendents of Edward III;
http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/g...escent.php
the chances of not being descended from some Emperor of other are very very slim indeed, so it all becomes pretty academic very quickly. back to my wedge formation drawings now, must get back on topic...... :oops:
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No guesses yet? I bet it was their most effective formation. That's probably why it wasn't written about. It was probably a slaughter and the story told by the few remaining survivors sounded unbelievable.
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A Wedge from 1972 advisor Sir Mortimer Wheeler, Illustrtaion Peter Connolly written Sandie Oram
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Mortimer Wheelers version of a 1 Cohort wedge from 1972, illustration Peter Connolly
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the 1 Cohort wedge as advised by Sir Mortimer Wheeler in 1972 illustrated by Peter Connolly;
[attachment=10065]1972wedge_edited-1.pdf[/attachment]
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