Question about the Roman \'wedge formation\'

[Astiryu1]

The Tactical advantage would be the differences in the weapons and armor and unit cohesion.

The Romans (standard)-

Helmet- Coolus?
Armor- Segmentata/Hamata?
Shield- Scutum
Weapons- Gladius/Pila
(all built to fight VERY close except the Pilum which weighs down the opponent's shield and/or kills,maims,etc.)

The Brits(standard)-

Helmet-?
Armor-Possibly Chainmail maybe a leather or padded coat of some type.
Shield- Targe type or oval
Weapons- Knives possibly seax like, Longsword?, Spears, Axes?, Javelins
(most weaponry is longer and the common man wasn't as well equipped with armor and sword)

These weapons mixed together with Unit cohesion on the Roman side and the Brits preference of single combat would pose an obvious problem with this scenario. Add the fact that the Brits may have been over confident and the Romans having their backs against the wall fought with everything they had.
Please correct me if I am wrong in the weaponry or armor.

[Dithrambus]

I don't recall any historical evidence for the saw tooth formation. I can't see any tactical advantage for it. In the video the Britons fill up the spaces and have a mirror formation
against the Romans and in theory have the same formation and tactical advantage against the Romans. What little evidence we have for the wedge as a legionary tactic could be interpreted that there were both hasty (Ad Hoc) and deliberate (Trained & practiced) forms of the tactic.

Thank you John, it seems that there is no known evidence for this 'sawtooth' formation, makes one curious as to why it is depicted in not one but two seperate documentaries. The History? channel should be more careful in their programming choices, (I guess that is the reason for legal disclaimers. :wink: ) Still, I believe that proper research and references should be used in all 'historic' documentaries to be aired for public viewing, as most people would not know the difference between theory and known fact.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Mark

[Ron Andrea]

The entertainment--or should I say "the amusement" (in the not thinking sense of the Greek)--is partly to blame, but part of the problem is also in the academic community. Academicians are rewarded for publishing, therefore there's a bias toward creating new theories--even if on shaky facts--to expound in those new books.

[M. Demetrius]

makes one curious as to why it is depicted in not one but two seperate documentaries

And they likely use each other as references, don't you think?

[Dithrambus]

makes one curious as to why it is depicted in not one but two seperate documentaries

And they likely use each other as references, don't you think?

Probably so!

The encouragement of using literary and archeological references here at RAT is something that I admire and which most adhere to. I think no less should be expected of historians whose observations are the topics of television documentaries, that said, I have no issue with theories as long as they are presented as such. :wink:

[Ron Andrea]

Of course, but the proliferation of theories creates the opportunity for some pretty strange things being advanced in those theories.

[jkaler48]

I thought for sure I'd get some comments on my interpretation of the Century level wedge formations right away .

[Astiryu1]

I wish I had something to add that is witty and groundbreaking in the study but as of yet...NOTHING except well done!

[Nathan Ross]

The encouragement of using literary and archeological references here at RAT is something that I admire and which most adhere to. I think no less should be expected of historians whose observations are the topics of television documentaries...

The documentary mentioned in the first post of this thread (Available in 8 parts on Youtube!) also contains some rather choice 'observations' on the subject of the military abilities of Boudicca and other 'celtic' women:

David Furlow: "(Boudicca) may also have had martial training, may actually have learned at an early age how to fight, how to hunt, and perhaps even how to kill..."

Gillian Carr: "The Icenian army was made up of anyone who was strong enough to carry a weapon: men, women, teenagers, even people who were getting quite old. I'm sure that everyone was so angry, they all wanted to fight!"

Guy de la Bedoyere: "We know very little about that background [of Boudicca and her daughters], but it's probable that they were trained in the art of war alongside the men in the tribe..."

The Bedoyere quote is particularly amusing - 'we know very little... but it's probable...' Historical documentaries like these require no corroboration for their statements, and any chance speculative comment by an 'historian' will often be taken as solid fact. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'sawtooth formation' idea derives from just such a source, many years ago...

- Nathan

[Dithrambus]

The Bedoyere quote is particularly amusing - 'we know very little... but it's probable...' Historical documentaries like these require no corroboration for their statements, and any chance speculative comment by an 'historian' will often be taken as solid fact. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'sawtooth formation' idea derives from just such a source, many years ago...

- Nathan

Agreed, this is irresponsible historic reporting, I first saw this documentary in 2003' and for seven years I had assumed that the Romans routinely used this 'sawtooth' formation. I am happy to have found a forum where truth can be uncovered and baseless theories may be dispelled!

Mark

[M. Demetrius]

Well, what we know is that the Romans used a formation called cuneus, wedge, and that ad cuneum, to the wedge, was one of the commands that sent them there.

What we don't know is what that formation looked like, or how it was organized. Heck, we aren't even completely sure how a command to change formations was issued to 20K clattering, jingling, foot-tramping troops so they knew what to do. Voice, relayed voice, horn signals, signum (standard) signals, or some combination...all are good suggestions, but little is known about the specifics.

[Astiryu1]

Well, what we know is that the Romans used a formation called cuneus, wedge, and that ad cuneum, to the wedge, was one of the commands that sent them there.

What we don't know is what that formation looked like, or how it was organized. Heck, we aren't even completely sure how a command to change formations was issued to 20K clattering, jingling, foot-tramping troops so they knew what to do. Voice, relayed voice, horn signals, signum (standard) signals, or some combination...all are good suggestions, but little is known about the specifics.

I would put my bet on a combination of all of them! In the thick of battle I would want as many ways as possible to make formation changes go faster. A little bit of preplanning might help too." Okay men after the initial clash I want the center to give ground while the sides advance and flank. If they don't follow; the center changes into a series of wedges and charges again. Wait for these signals." But as said above we know little of the specifics.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Scantily clad women running between the lines, with story boards...?

[Sardaukar]

Well, what we know is that the Romans used a formation called cuneus, wedge, and that ad cuneum, to the wedge, was one of the commands that sent them there.

What we don't know is what that formation looked like, or how it was organized. Heck, we aren't even completely sure how a command to change formations was issued to 20K clattering, jingling, foot-tramping troops so they knew what to do. Voice, relayed voice, horn signals, signum (standard) signals, or some combination...all are good suggestions, but little is known about the specifics.

I would put my bet on a combination of all of them! In the thick of battle I would want as many ways as possible to make formation changes go faster. A little bit of preplanning might help too." Okay men after the initial clash I want the center to give ground while the sides advance and flank. If they don't follow; the center changes into a series of wedges and charges again. Wait for these signals." But as said above we know little of the specifics.

I'd not put my bet on voice and relayed voice. When 50k Gauls are baying for your blood, for example, it might be bit difficult. My bet is for something like to have cornicen sound signal to look at signum and have that relayed from century to century. And we know how well cornicen did in Gergovia, don't we...

I do have my suspicion that lot of complex maneuvers legions thought to be able to do after battle line had commenced were not really possible. This does not of course count troops not committed yet and lulls in battles were also apparently very common.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I'm wondering if this saw tooth is also not just an interpretation of the spacing of the troops in each century, alternate positions in each row , with a prope spacing could be interpreted as a Saw tooth...