Greek hoplites in Persian art

[PMBardunias]

And the description of cheir armour doesn't fit either

I'm not referring to the arm guard, which I agree with you as to form, but to the following piece:

Xen. Horse. 12.6: But the right hand must be raised when the man intends to fling his javelin or strike a blow. Consequently that portion of the breastplate that hinders him in doing that should be removed; and in place of it there should be detachable flaps at the joints, in order that, when the arm is elevated, they may open correspondingly, and may close when it is lowered.

This sounds like a "Pauldron" or shoulder flap to me, which is what I think is pictured in the relief.

[MeinPanzer]

Xen. Horse. 12.6: But the right hand must be raised when the man intends to fling his javelin or strike a blow. Consequently that portion of the breastplate that hinders him in doing that should be removed; and in place of it there should be detachable flaps at the joints, in order that, when the arm is elevated, they may open correspondingly, and may close when it is lowered.

This sounds like a "Pauldron" or shoulder flap to me, which is what I think is pictured in the relief.

The Greek is:

??? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????????: ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ?????????? ?????????? ????, ???? ??? ?????????, ?????? ?????????????, ???? ?? ??????????, ????????????.

Which literally translated reads:

It is necessary in this way to remove the hindering part from the cuirass. Instead of this (i.e. that part) pteryges with hinge joints (gigglumois) must be added so that, whenever [the arm] may be raised up, likewise they (the pteryges) may open, and whenever [the arm] may be lowered, they may be closed.

So he is envisioning a system of pteryges, and not a large flap like we see here.

[immortal]

I seem to have lost my full image of this, If I remember correctly, he is riding down a hoplite? If he is wearing greaves, they are rendered strangley, they weem to have a flat top and do not extend over the knee and lower at the back.
The seal may show baggy trousers, it is hard to tell. If so the tunic must be under the cuirass. I dont see why a long tunic would hinder riding drastically?
He does seem to almost be identical to the Cannakale depiction.
This shoulder piece may well be like the scaled one found in the Sem'Bratiev barrow. details like scales or quilting may well have been painted on.

So, is Xenophon actually taking about the shoulder pteryges that are shown on the Alexander mosaic and the statue that was shown recently? If so, does this mean that they were in use much earlier (or known at least).

[PMBardunias]

[Instead of this (i.e. that part) pteryges with hinge joints (gigglumois) must be added

Why would the normal strip-type pteruges need hinges? I am assuming a pteruge, "wing", could be a single broad flap as well. Some armors, especially early examples, had rather broad flaps around the waist as well. Did these have another name besides pteruges?

If I am correct then this fits perfectly.

[MeinPanzer]

I seem to have lost my full image of this, If I remember correctly, he is riding down a hoplite?

Not a hoplite, but an Anatolian peltast, and Ma has very convincingly postulated that he is a Mysian.

If he is wearing greaves, they are rendered strangley, they weem to have a flat top and do not extend over the knee and lower at the back.

They are a little hard to make out. I didn't think it was a greave, but Sevinc et al. who published it state that it is, and the clearest picture they publish of the leg region does seem to show it:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/leg.jpg

The seal may show baggy trousers, it is hard to tell. If so the tunic must be under the cuirass. I dont see why a long tunic would hinder riding drastically?

Wouldn't it bunch up around the groin, and just generally make things more difficult in maneuvering for the rider? If we know that Persian horsemen wore shorter tunics and trousers, as we do, then it just seems logical that there's another explanation for those zig zags.

This shoulder piece may well be like the scaled one found in the Sem'Bratiev barrow. details like scales or quilting may well have been painted on.

Only the paint is still preserved on this sarcophagus, and the only paint on the shoulder area is plain red, with no texture or pattern. It's neat to see other details, though, like the fact that the pteryges were alternately white and red.

Why would the normal strip-type pteruges need hinges? I am assuming a pteruge, "wing", could be a single broad flap as well. Some armors, especially early examples, had rather broad flaps around the waist as well. Did these have another name besides pteruges?

If I am correct then this fits perfectly.

Well, gigglumos, according to LSJ, can mean any of these things:

A. hinge, “???? ?? ?.” Hp.Loc.Hom.6, cf. Apollod.Poliorc.190.1: hence a species of joint, Arist.de An.433b22, Gal.2.735.
2. metal pivot or gudgeon on which a door turns, = ????????, IG4.1484.74 (Epid.), 11(2).165.15 (Delos, iii B. C.):— written ?????? , ib.142.49 (an engraver's error).
3. joint in a coat of mail, X.Eq.12.6.
4. clasp, buckle, J.AJ3.6.3,4.
5. mode of kissing, Hsch.

And so it could have had some sort of more nuanced technical meaning with which Xenophon, being a military man, was familiar, but which has since been lost to us. It seems pretty clear, though, that what is meant is some sort of flexible joining, which I agree makes little sense with pteryges. It could have had some broader meaning that could apply to a larger protective piece, but Xenophon uses it in the very specific sense that we use it today only a few sections above (12.4: "Around the abdomen and the genitals and the regions roundabout let the pteryges be so many and of such kind that they fend off missiles").

So, is Xenophon actually taking about the shoulder pteryges that are shown on the Alexander mosaic and the statue that was shown recently? If so, does this mean that they were in use much earlier (or known at least).

Xenophon's writing in this case is prescriptive, not descriptive, and so he writes about a composite of all sorts of different kinds of armour that he had seen in his days, some of which was Persian. He very well may be describing shoulder pteryges like those which later became widespread, but none of his advice on armour seems to have been heeded by Greek cavalrymen (at least, not until much later in most cases). He states, for instance, that they should be worn only on one shoulder, and he also advocates some sort of tall gorget which was never used.

[PMBardunias]

Xenophon's writing in this case is prescriptive, not descriptive

That really has to be stressed. Reading Xenophon's suggestions is a bit like reading De Saxe. Its fairly close to what we might call science fiction- the pieces either exist or are feasable, but this should not indicate common usage.

I don't think I've ever looked up Pteruges before, its quite interesting and many meanings, like the fins of fish, seals, and sea turtles we would think of as flaps:

?????? (
A. [select] “??????” Aristarch. ap. Hdn.Gr.1.45), ?^???, ?: Ep. dat. pl. ??????????: (??????):—wing of a bird, Il.2.316; mostly pl., ib.462, Od.2.149, Hes.Sc.134, A.Ag.52 (anap.), etc.; ????? ????????, ???? . . ????? ??? ???????? white in its plumage, save . . the tips of the wings, of the ibis, Hdt.2.76; of Eros and Nike, Aristopho 11.8: metaph., ???????? ???????? ??? 'trying your wings', Lib.Ep.155.2.
2. [select] winged creature, bird, AP6.12 (Jul.).
3. [select] flight, augury, omen, ????? (sc. ????????“ ??? ?????? ????????” Call.Lav.Pall.124.
II. [select] anything like a wing,
1. [select] in pl.,= ????????, fins of fish, Arist. HA505b21, Mir.835b10, Ael.NA11.24; flippers of seals, Arist. PA697b5; of dolphins and whales, Id.HA537b3; of the tortoise, Nic.Al.559.
2. [select] pl., feathery foliage, Thphr.HP3.9.6.
b. [select] = ???????? 1, Dsc.3.134.
3. [select] blade of the steering-paddle, IG22.1607.74: hence, rudder, S.Fr.1083; ????????? ?., of oars, Epigr.Gr.337.2 (Cyzicus).
4. [select] flap of a cuirass, X.An.4.7.15 (v.l.), cf. Eq.12.4, 6; of the Doric ?????, Ar.Fr.325, Men.Epit.187, Com.Adesp.17.1 D., Plu.Comp.Lyc.Num.3, Poll.7.62.
5. [select] broad edge of a knife or hunting-spear, Plu.Alex.16, Poll.5.21; beak of the sword-fish (v.l. ??????), Ael.NA9.40.
6. [select] lobe of the lungs, Hp.Coac.394.
7. [select] point of a building, Poll.7.121.
8. [select] front frame of a torsion-engine, Hero Bel.101.8.
9. [select] shoulder-blade, Philostr.Gym.30.
10. [select] in pl., title of poem whose lines form a pattern like wings, AP15.24 (Simm.).
11. [select] pl., sails, Com.Adesp.9 D., Lyr.Alex.Adesp.20.9.
III. [select] anything that covers or protects like wings, “?. ??????” E.Ion 1143; ??????? ??????? ???????, i.e. Aulis, Id.IA120 (lyr.); “??????? ???? ???????? ????????? ????” Id.Tr.751; of a mountain, “??????? ????????” Musae.48.
2. [select] fence, wall, Lyc.291.
IV. [select] metaph., ???????? ???? the wings, i.e. the flight or flow, of grief, S. El.242 (lyr.); “?. ????????” Pi.I.1.64.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is what i meant,of how the yoke can be shown by greek artists.
Khairete
Giannis