Linothorax Question

[Dan Howard]

As to conclusions based on texture seen on vases, I'm fine with being agnostic on whether or not such lines suggest quilting as long as you don't then take the lack of such lines as evidence that there was no quilting. Clearly if artists could add texture for effect, they could also take it away. Me, I think that without further explanation for the pattern the default hypothesis should be if it quacks like a duck...

Yep. If nothing else then Occam's razor suggests that quilting was involved with Greek layered textile armour. It must be the default conclusion until contrary evidence presents itself.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I agree,if we also add that some times it IS clear that they do not show quilting but scales. The "Achilles vase" is quite clear, as is this statue from Aphaia
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/AphaiaEV84.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ushkin.jpg
which bears many similarities to the Amazon shown on the vase above.
Khairete
Giannis

[rocktupac]

As to conclusions based on texture seen on vases, I'm fine with being agnostic on whether or not such lines suggest quilting as long as you don't then take the lack of such lines as evidence that there was no quilting. Clearly if artists could add texture for effect, they could also take it away. Me, I think that without further explanation for the pattern the default hypothesis should be if it quacks like a duck...

Yep. If nothing else then Occam's razor suggests that quilting was involved with Greek layered textile armour. It must be the default conclusion until contrary evidence presents itself.

Oh yes, must be.

[Dan Howard]

On the quilted side we have three thousand years of precedent from various time periods and cultures. On the glued side there is... what?

[M. Demetrius]

Giannis, note also, how the chiton comes out from under the arm, over the armor in both of those sculptures.

[immortal]

I was flicking through Herodotus last night and came upon some interesting quotes.

When he describes the Phoenicians he says "They wore helmets made almost in the Grecian manner; about their bodies they wore breastplates of linen'
When talking about the Ionians, Dorians, Lycians, Pamphylians and so on he says 'they wore arms like the Greeks'
Most interesting is the comment on the Hellespontians who he says "Wore the Grecian armour"

He is clearly making a distinction between linen armour and 'Grecian armour' (presumably bronze?)

When talking about an Egyptian dedication to Athena he says he gave "two statues in stone and a linen corselet" the notes next to this says "it has been conjectured that the "tree wool" of Herodotus was silk; but cotton is commonly used for embroidery even at the present day".
Could "linen" be a mistranslation of a plant fibre? Such as those made into armour by the Aztecs?

Just to add to this. He also says that the Persians wore “the Egyptian cuirass", but later says that they "wore iron scales, like those of a fish" which is most likely the Cuirass of the Assyrians.
Last, but not least.... some Egyptian depictions from the time of the Persian Empire show them wearing T&Y corselets and crested helmets.

Is any of this of significance?

[PMBardunias]

When he describes the Phoenicians he says "They wore helmets made almost in the Grecian manner; about their bodies they wore breastplates of linen'
When talking about the Ionians, Dorians, Lycians, Pamphylians and so on he says 'they wore arms like the Greeks'
Most interesting is the comment on the Hellespontians who he says "Wore the Grecian armour"

These comparisons are difficult for a number of reasons, and not just in Herodotus, but in Xenophon too. First its unclear what criteria the author uses to distinguish the types of armor. It could be base material, manner of construction/cut, or even simply a steriotypical style. Second, these distinctions look clear when we draw them out and list them, but I'd like to see a systematic comparison to know if the author himself is even consistent in his differentiation. For example, if I wrote a history of the vietnam war, I might in one place mention that the US and VC both used assault rifles, then in another I might mention that the VC could not use US ammo because their assault rifles were n a 7.62 caliber, then in another I might call one a AK-47 and the other an M-16. You can see how confusing this would be if we did not have the common context of knowing what these weapons were and looked like.

For example, at Cunaxa Xenophon tells us the Persians wore "leukothorakes" or white-armor. Taken in isolation that could mean anything from linen to white painted scales like the Etruscans, or painted bronze plate.

When talking about an Egyptian dedication to Athena he says he gave "two statues in stone and a linen corselet" the notes next to this says "it has been conjectured that the "tree wool" of Herodotus was silk; but cotton is commonly used for embroidery even at the present day".

My understanding is that Tree wool is cotton and if I recall the passage, the armor was not made of tree wool, but decorated, embroidered, with it. It may not even be armor by the way, but I think it was, for a statue of Athena at Sparta would have been armored.

Just to add to this. He also says that the Persians wore “the Egyptian cuirass", but later says that they "wore iron scales, like those of a fish" which is most likely the Cuirass of the Assyrians.

Scales were so common that I'm not sure why you would connect them solely with Assyria alone.

[immortal]

I agree completely that the terminology may be incorrect and that we don't know what part of it was linen and so forth. The point I was making is that Herodotus makes a distinction between 'linen armour' and 'Greek armour' while still making the point that they wore a helmet similar to the Greek ones. If all the armour was the same he would have just said "they were equipped in the Grecian manner" as he does repeatedly with other nations.

As for the scales. The Egyptian cuirass is thought to be the same as the Assyrian one. If the Persians adopted the cuirass of the Egyptians it was probably lamular armour. They of course did use Skythian style armour.... reminants of both have been found at Persepolis.

Anyway, I just thought those passages interesting... it may not add anthing to the debate though.

[PMBardunias]

I agree completely that the terminology may be incorrect and that we don't know what part of it was linen and so forth. The point I was making is that Herodotus makes a distinction between 'linen armour' and 'Greek armour' while still making the point that they wore a helmet similar to the Greek ones. If all the armour was the same he would have just said "they were equipped in the Grecian manner" as he does repeatedly with other nations.

I agree that it can be read that way, and perhaps should. I'm just extremely cautious. For example, you might read the "Greek manner" as being armored in a mix of plate, linen and leather armors, while the Phoenicians, being marines, only wore the linen type.

[immortal]

I agree completely that the terminology may be incorrect and that we don't know what part of it was linen and so forth. The point I was making is that Herodotus makes a distinction between 'linen armour' and 'Greek armour' while still making the point that they wore a helmet similar to the Greek ones. If all the armour was the same he would have just said "they were equipped in the Grecian manner" as he does repeatedly with other nations.

I agree that it can be read that way, and perhaps should. I'm just extremely cautious. For example, you might read the "Greek manner" as being armored in a mix of plate, linen and leather armors, while the Phoenicians, being marines, only wore the linen type.

Yes, good point.
Why didn't these people write in more detail!
Are there any contemporary Phoenician depictions of warriors?

[hoplite14gr]

I think in the History Archaeology section some people including myself have posted images in various threads,
Paul's "spiked shield" thread comes to mind.
Kind regards

[tDub248]

Why didn't these people write in more detail!
Are there any contemporary Phoenician depictions of warriors?

That caught my eye before too - here's the full section:

LXXXIX. The number of the triremes was twelve hundred and seven, and they were furnished by the following: the Phoenicians with the Syrians of Palestine furnished three hundred; for their equipment, they had on their heads helmets very close to the Greek in style; they wore linen breastplates, and carried shields without rims, and javelins. [2] These Phoenicians formerly dwelt, as they themselves say, by the Red Sea; they crossed from there and now inhabit the seacoast of Syria. This part of Syria as far as Egypt is all called Palestine.

Could they be referring to Israelites?

[hoplite14gr]

The Greeks used to term the Asiatic coastal population Phoinicians (Exception are the coastal dwellers of Asia Minor).
Herodotus talks first about Arabs. I do not know if there is any Archaeological evidence showing if a separate semitic group at the time
identified itself as Israelites

Kind regards