Linothorax Question

[Yehya]

Hi All

I suppose this is a fairly open question but I have been reading many of the back threads here and other places. I am thinking of making a linothorax and wondering what is the current consensus on materials:

glued linen

stitched padded linen

leather

glued linen reinforced with bronze plates

leather reinforced with bronze plates

[Matthew Amt]

Khaire!

Yup, still a lot of discussion about this. We are pretty sure that a linothorax made of quilted layers of linen is good for the Hellenistic era, probably from the time of the Peloponnesian Wars but I'm not certain. Before that, for instance for the popular Persian War era, what we're seeing in all those vase paintings is most likely not a linothorax but a spolas, made of leather. There is no evidence at all for glued linen. I believe there are several variations on reinforcing scales for either the spolas or the linothorax. Oh, you'll also see the term "tube and yoke cuirass" or just "T-Y" as a sort of weasel word since we can't prove what it really is!

That what you're looking for? The main thread on the whole discussion is:

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Page 5 is where I was convinced to ditch the whole glued linen thing for leather. It was not easy!

Good luck,

Matthew

[PMBardunias]

I wrote an article that summarized the arguements for each type of construction in the last issue of Ancient Warfare that drew heavily from the RAT discussion because it is perhaps the best you will find. Its a good excuse to subscribe to Ancient Warfare, for I did uncover some new information.

[maitre Renard]

Khaire!

I don,t know much on the subject but...
probably, linothorax was of glued linen, oftenly reinforced with metal plates.
Also, i suppose it could be padded in some places[attachment=0:9wnrwzty]<!-- ia0 linothorax.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:9wnrwzty]
here we can see linothorax, probably made of glued linen which is seems to be padded (these "bricks")on the sides.

Also=))) there was a some kind of leather cuirass. For example, here is a book of Chernenko, who describes skythian leather armour some of which is very alike of the linothoraxes depicted (img 5).
http://annals.xlegio.ru/skif/chernenk/sd01.htm#skin (I,m sorry - it,s in Russian)

[Matthew Amt]

probably, linothorax was of glued linen, oftenly reinforced with metal plates.

Well, if you read through the thread that I linked to above, you'll find that the whole idea of *glued* linen is a modern idea with no basis in history at all. So any linen armor was padded or quilted in some way.

here we can see linothorax, probably made of glued linen which is seems to be padded (these "bricks")on the sides.

What you show is what we are starting to call "tube and yoke cuirass". Probably it is a spolas, made of leather. It has *scales* on the sides, most likely bronze or iron.

It's hard to cut out all the modern misconceptions! But if you put all the actual evidence together, it all points in the same general direction.

Khaire,

Matthew

[PMBardunias]

"tube and yoke cuirass".

Hey Matt, good to see you educating them. In my AW article I made an attempt at standardizing the name as a "Tube and Yoke Corslet" or T-Y corslet, because Anderson used the designation corslet to emphasize the difference between this and the bronze cuirasse. Yea, I know, convoluted since cuirasse ultimately stems from a leather product, but it does make the distinction clear.

[maitre Renard]

One can hardly translate "tube and yoke" into Russian cry:

Both conceptions are versions. :wink:


As for the scales on the sides of the amazone. It just remined me the 15-th century panzershosses which are quilted in the same way))))) Of course, it is much more real that these bricks are the metal scales, but))))
[attachment=0:1pvqh9td]<!-- ia0 MI02351b11a.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1pvqh9td]

[PMBardunias]

I don't think that side-panel above is quilted, but many vases surely look like what we see on other quilted armors. The type you show above I have seen on reconstructions of Byzantine armor, and it is very similar to the middle type in the image I attached below. On the left of that image, if not just artistic texturing, are some quilted patterns (or perhaps something like a Coat of nails), the right shows vertical panels often seen in later quilted armors.

[rocktupac]

I don't think that side-panel above is quilted, but many vases surely look like what we see on other quilted armors. The type you show above I have seen on reconstructions of Byzantine armor, and it is very similar to the middle type in the image I attached below. On the left of that image, if not just artistic texturing, are some quilted patterns (or perhaps something like a Coat of nails), the right shows vertical panels often seen in later quilted armors.

This is why I am very hesitant to label anything 'quilted' simply based off of the vase paintings; because what doesn't look like quilting to you may "scream out" quilting to another. Personally I think it is impossible to identify what the artist had in mind when drawing the armor and what they were trying to portray. It could be quilting, it could be scales or lamellar, or it could be just a decoration.

[M. Demetrius]

...and it could be simply painted designs on the original, depicted/interpreted as "decorative" on the vase. Some of the Eastern garments apparently have diamond, checkered, or other geometric patterns on the cloth, whether tunics, leggings, or headgear.

However, if there are several layers of cloth in the garment, it's a good idea to use knotted thread, lines of stitching or something to keep each of them from trying to go their own ways. The edges of the various layers will be difficult to manage, if there's not some kind of connecting system. It's just basic sewing sense, a trait that is not unique to the modern seamster.

[Astiryu1]

The woven fabric itself could give that pattern as well; right? Regardless of the process of the layering;if the weave is patterned itself this is possible.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, in the illustration below, the first and second patterns are not "the weave", though those patterns could be woven into the fabric. The warp and weft threads are pretty small diameter, so a vase painting probably wouldn't show the texture of the fabric itself, I'd think. Are they quilted layers? I wouldn't be able to tell with certainty, though I'd generally suspect they were.

[Astiryu1]

I think of Navajo blankets with woven patterns and such. These being fairly thick AND glued together would be a frightening combination of textile. Just being dipped in glue would give it some form of armor capability. But that is theory so far for me. I haven't tried it yet.

[PMBardunias]

The woven fabric itself could give that pattern as well; right?

Yes, such patterns in the textile are commonly seen on things like perizoma. By the way, "Perizoma" is the single best ancient term to search on google images. Go ahead, you deserve it! :wink:

As to conclusions based on texture seen on vases, I'm fine with being agnostic on whether or not such lines suggest quilting as long as you don't then take the lack of such lines as evidence that there was no quilting. Clearly if artists could add texture for effect, they could also take it away. Me, I think that without further explanation for the pattern the default hypothesis should be if it quacks like a duck...

[Astiryu1]

Not what I was expecting hock: ... but it did lead me to this!
[url:2m5hhyy0]http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Fashion.htm[/url]