Empirical testing of hoplite performance

[Daniel S.]

Sounds like a really exciting research design! In the stabbing exercise I can see how the importance of having skilled subjects to arrive at conclusions are reduced by comparing rates under different circumstances. Would be nice to get some quantitative data of how feasible it is to have three ranks striking at once. You mention that you would be able to draw conclusions on the feasibility of three ranks based on how the rate of the promachos varies -- but as I understand it you also note that you would like to have data on how the rate of all three rows varies. I want to add that I think those measurements would be needed to answer that question meaningfully. It could well be that the rate of the first person is decreased but that it is compensated by the additional points striking.

The design of the disorder test sounds fine too. I'm not so sure about measuring the distance between feet. Is there a particularly compelling reason for not measuring for instance the distance between the subjects hips (or wherever their 'point of balance' would be)? And do you see any more problems, compared to the stabbing test, with using subjects that are less fit and drilled than what they probably were back in the days? It seems that individual skills could have a greater impact on how different contexts (formations, spacing, postures) affects variations in disorder.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,i know that this was just an example of how could an empirical test be valuable,but still we wouldn't gain much in our knowlege of what the used in which way. What i mean is that we may find that the rates of all three lines are decreased when stabbing all together. What is fundamental to draw any conclusions though is how three rows prevent an oposing phalanx to stab or even come close! It may be that none of the three ranks has any freedom to move or space to stab with any accuracy,but it may also be that three rows of points protruding are such an obstacle for the oponents that actually makes their lives much more difficult.And this we will never know.
This is not a critique agains your general idea of how re-enactors could help, but perhaps it would be more useful for conditions that can be simulated with exact accuracy to the ancient experience. Like a march or charge for instace.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

What is fundamental to draw any conclusions though is how three rows prevent an oposing phalanx to stab or even come close!

With any experimentation like this, the key is to reduce the problem to individual elements that can be compared. I have planned a series of experiments that build off of this basic structure. First you need a stabbing rate that can be measured for one rank, then you can add two, then three, even four. Then you add blunted weapons on long poles held by men behind the targets and out of the dorys reach to simulate attack that needs defending- then two ranks of those, etc. Then, in answer to the above question, we would get the total output for the formation as well, but this is more challenging and involves making more assumptions about how the second ranks behave. If you just throw it all in at once we have no idea what behaviors are causing a reduction in stabbing rate. I chose stabbing rate because I believe it reflects a behavior that is required in a phalanx and presents men with the problem of active interference through the ranks. Presenting the most effective hedge of spears to a foe's line would be another test and require yet another set up. It is unlikely that any single manner of combat will perform best at all of these stages, but hopefully only a few- or one- will do well in all.

Like the plan for a battle, a research plan rarely remains unchanged once the first data is gathered and you see what you need. I would not do all of this, it will take too much time and men are not lab rats, but I am presenting the basic structure as a whole which we could choose tests from as they seem most informative. Many will be ruled out as we go along- if three ranks are deletorious, no need to test four, etc. I chose this experiemnt as a first step to recommend precisely because it is a start to introduce the concept and it is "do-able". As always though, if your group would like to test something else, I will gladdly help to devise a meaningful test that will produce data.

[PMBardunias]

It could well be that the rate of the first person is decreased but that it is compensated by the additional points striking.

I agree completely, it is the total output that matters in the end, but we need to know how the individual men interact. The first introductory test centers on the promachoi, but this focus of course can be altered. One big problem with thirst rank striking is that we'd need to define a target for them. Unless the promachoi are choking up on their dorys, they have something like a 3' reach advantage. This becomes more obvious with sarissaphoroi where the distances are greater, and the 4th or fifth rank of sarissas cannot engage a line simultaneously with the first rank.

The design of the disorder test sounds fine too. I'm not so sure about measuring the distance between feet. Is there a particularly compelling reason for not measuring for instance the distance between the subjects hips (or wherever their 'point of balance' would be)?

Yes, because we can have the men "freeze" their feet in position but not their hips. Also the feet are already on the fround making the measurement easier.

And do you see any more problems, compared to the stabbing test, with using subjects that are less fit and drilled than what they probably were back in the days? It seems that individual skills could have a greater impact on how different contexts (formations, spacing, postures) affects variations in disorder.

This is where the experimental design comes in. We'll be getting averages, so any truly dismal hoplite will shake out. Even if our modern men are not the equal to their ancestors, it will probably just mean the averages are all lower, but the trends should be the same. Do you agree? I suppose it is possible to have something of a phase change due to training, but then most hoplites were not so well trained.

[Daniel S.]

One big problem with thirst rank striking is that we'd need to define a target for them. Unless the promachoi are choking up on their dorys, they have something like a 3' reach advantage. This becomes more obvious with sarissaphoroi where the distances are greater, and the 4th or fifth rank of sarissas cannot engage a line simultaneously with the first rank.

Thanks for the clarification -- I see now that you get a totally different problem when measuring total output. Definitely wise to start out with the simplest design. In relation to that I agree that you need to start out without taking account of any opposition -- as I understand it your dependent variable would at this stage be interference and not how effective a formation is in defeating opponents.

Yes, because we can have the men "freeze" their feet in position but not their hips. Also the feet are already on the fround making the measurement easier.

Ok, yeah it might be the most consistent measure of the alternatives.

This is where the experimental design comes in. We'll be getting averages, so any truly dismal hoplite will shake out. Even if our modern men are not the equal to their ancestors, it will probably just mean the averages are all lower, but the trends should be the same. Do you agree? I suppose it is possible to have something of a phase change due to training, but then most hoplites were not so well trained.

You are most likely correct that there would be no phase change and that the trends would be representative. What I was getting at is that the differences in physical culture between hoplites and reenactors could throw some results off when doing more complicated tests. I'm not talking about general levels of fitness or health or having a more physically demanding lifestyle. But in my limited understanding of hoplites, skills that demand high levels of coordination and rythm, like dancing and physical competitions (wrestling), could be common skills much like different skillsets, like playing with balls or computers, are today in Europe. That could potentially cause weird differences when doing more complicated manoeuvres. But again, the risk of that is probably small. And if you would suspect it -- it would probably be easy to do the a smaller tests with a sub-set of reenactors that have lifestiles more similiar to hoplites and see if the results remain qualitatively the same.

[PMBardunias]

But in my limited understanding of hoplites, skills that demand high levels of coordination and rythm, like dancing and physical competitions (wrestling), could be common skills much like different skillsets, like playing with balls or computers, are today in Europe.

Ah, I see what you are getting at. I'm not sure if you've read any of my stuff, but we are thinking alike because I've put forth that group dancing is probably the primary mode of training for hoplite combat. The ability to move in unison with files of men is surely a preadaptation for fighting in a phalanx- particularly in othismos. It is not suprising that we read "those who dance best for the Gods are best in war" or that battlefields should be called "dancing grounds".

As to how such cultural skill sets play out, I have an anectdote. I was once in Darwin Australia, playing catch with a rugby ball with a local fellow. It was a kids ball and pretty much the size and shape of a stubby ended football, so I threw it like one, overhand in a spiral. My friend could not do this, but he could punt it to me with his fist quite accurately- which was comical when I tried it. Thus, due simply to the game I had grown up with, I was better prepared to be a peltast than he was.

[Astiryu1]

So what sports,activities and lifestyles are best for hoplite warfare?
So far we have:
-Group Dancing
I would add:
-Track and Field (Javelin,Sprinting, Pole Vault, etc.)
-Martial Arts (Wrestling, Boxing, Fencing, etc.)
-Team Sports (Football, Soccer, Rugby, etc.)
-Marching Band(Choreographed unit tactics :twisted: , Marching, etc. )

[Daniel S.]

I've enjoyed reading many of your posts here while lurking and I've also visited your blog a while ago -- I will go back to it now and read your latest entries as I mainly remember your blog for your ideas with crowd dynamics. Come to think of it I believe I remember that you've written about the significance of dancing and rythm (probably with a Spartan angle). I really like the complexity/emergence/system angle your running with.

The importance of rythm angle interesting for me personally since I've done some physical education and breakdance teaching when I was younger and glanced how some skill-sets just seem to be more conducive to coordinated activities.

[PMBardunias]

So what sports,activities and lifestyles are best for hoplite warfare?

Well, if we make two assumptions, both of which may be invalid, we may have some evidence to answer this question. First, that the games Spartan youths played were at least in part designed to train them for battle, and second, that the Spartan games we have had passed down to us are not all Hellenistic inventions. I'm drawing mostly from Kennell's book for what follows.

Young Spartans competed in a variety of athletic and artistic competitions, often the two merged. The Moa, Keloia, Kaththeratorion, Eubalkes, and the Deros were competed in as individuals. The Moa was a song competition of some sort, the Keloia a competition in what were probably hunting calls akin to yoedeling. The name Kaththeratorion seems a late invention, but if it built off an earlier contest, it had something to do with hunting, probably a miming dance. Some native american dances are like this. The last two translate roughly as the "valiant" and the "shield", so I am tempted to see some sort of Pyrrhic dance, but no one knows.

They also competed in group competition. One game was "Sphairomachia", Ball-war, which might be the same as a game described by Pollux (1.9.104) as a combination of valleyball and football. Imagine a clash of football linemen in the place of a net, one side constantly trying to force the other back. The most applicable in my opinion was the "Battle" which took place on an artifical island, surrounded by a moat and plane trees. It was simply a no-holds (or gouges and bites) barred clash between two teams of young men who attempted to push the other team off of this island and into the moat. You see the commonality of pushing or at least forcing back in some manner.

So in short, if I had to board my time machine and face hoplites, I would be surrounded by NFL linemen- at least those who can dance. :wink:

[hoplite14gr]

Marshaling very raw recruits.
Please watch and see that it does takes effort to master the basic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfKn-1ocNRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvimCwu6P0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9XeZHdjZLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y6wGY4XkVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FT1kI1qdM

I thank the gentlemen of the "Hetairoi" for putting up with me.

Kind regards