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\'Vindolanda-style\' archive found in The Netherlands
#16
Quote:Funny you say the Tolsum tablet is well known, because it is not. There are only a handful of Dutch people knowing of its existence.
That is true; but at least, the Tolsum writing tablet has been in the news over the past two years, there have been expositions about it, and there is a little book - well actually, it's the special issue of the journal of the Frisian Academy, It Beaken (71 [2009]). I think there is a better chance that people remember Tolsum than Vindolanda.
Quote:The context of the find is hazy, there seem to be no drawings of the finds in situ, and the (acclaimed) conservation method by freezing the planks in water is not really a method at all, and probably has damaged the stuff.
The amateurs who found it, realized what it was, and did their best to save it. The most shocking detail in the story is that the professional archaeologist of the province (or city?) of Utrecht realized it was important four years ago. For a quarter of a century, the world of science and scholarship just ignored what they had. They will never admit that the concervation method was dangerous, because that will amount to admitting their own mistake.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#17
So very true Jona,

Most of the finds here in the Netherlands have not even been described let alone researched... One of my friends used to work for an archeological provincial depot, well two actually, and when i visited him on the first one he opened some drawers in the massive hall full of artefacts from headpieces of columns to mammoth stuff, and the drawers contained scores !! of cheek-pieces of Roman helmets, scores of Pugiones !! and a lot more goodies, all never described nor researched or even catalogued....

Its simply scandalous how archeology is executed in this country, you need to lick someones..... to be able to reseach any find.

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#18
Quote:Most of the finds here in the Netherlands have not even been described let alone researched...
Which is not uncommon, but somehow, we've managed to create additional problems over here in Holland. Right now, archaeologists can ask for money to investigate the stuff they have not investigated before, This in itself is outrageous, as it essentially puts a bonus on poor financial administration: the excavators ought to have made a good budget back then.

But now the surprise. If you accept money, it is useful to show something. Then the financer knows that the money is well-spent, and he may consider a new payment. There has to be a press release that contains at least some special news. Here is a recent example: the remains of a tower-shaped tomb, which had not been recognized before.

As a matter of fact, I have been working on that excavation and I have seen those finds. I remember how they were discussed, including the idea that it was a tower-shaped tomb. I am pretty sure about this, because I drove back with two of the main excavators, and we talked a lot about it. Being the only historian in the car, I felt quite satisfied that I understood the discussion, and could make a clever remark about similar monuments in Cologne and Trier. I now realize that the others did not mention those because it was pretty obvious to them - but my own misguided brilliance is not my point right now: it's that I am very, very sure that there is nothing new about the interpretation at all.

What worries me, is that our universities have somehow become companies. Their press releases are unreliable, partly intended to make sure that money is obtained. The academic system in Holland is rotten to the core.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#19
What gets me is that there's no mention of Vindolanda or its writing tablets at all. 100 fragments of tablet is by far -not- the largest collection found in one place. And even when the Netherlands tablets were found in 1978 there was already a body of material describing Vindolanda's collection and their attempts to conserve it. For a find like this to live in a little bubble for 30-some years with no cross-checking, no cooperation to try to conserve it properly... it's just mind-boggling.

- Harry

www.wedigvindolanda.com
Everything old is new again.
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#20
Quote:What gets me is that there's no mention of Vindolanda or its writing tablets at all. 100 fragments of tablet is by far -not- the largest collection found in one place. And even when the Netherlands tablets were found in 1978 there was already a body of material describing Vindolanda's collection and their attempts to conserve it. For a find like this to live in a little bubble for 30-some years with no cross-checking, no cooperation to try to conserve it properly... it's just mind-boggling.
Harry,
a) Vindolanda was mentioned in the article.
b) It's not a 100 fragments:
Quote:Nineteen fragments, four small fragments; the rest is just crumbles. No hundred fragments therefore .
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
Hi Jona,
Quote:
MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS:hxpg1gnt Wrote:The context of the find is hazy, there seem to be no drawings of the finds in situ, and the (acclaimed) conservation method by freezing the planks in water is not really a method at all, and probably has damaged the stuff.
The amateurs who found it, realized what it was, and did their best to save it. The most shocking detail in the story is that the professional archaeologist of the province (or city?) of Utrecht realized it was important four years ago. For a quarter of a century, the world of science and scholarship just ignored what they had. They will never admit that the concervation method was dangerous, because that will amount to admitting their own mistake.
Tell us more! Are you saying that this find was already known for 30 years and someone decided that the amateur archaeologists were allowed to keep it?
Did they indeed offer it to the proper authorities who rejected it? Who made what mistake? I'm puzzled. :|
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#22
Quote:a) Vindolanda was mentioned in the article. b) It's not a 100 fragments
Sorry, fingers engaged before brain. I was referring to the 2nd article: [url:12d38hyb]http://www.nu.nl/wetenschap/2289290/rom%20...%20recht.html[/url]. Though both articles mention 100 fragments.
Everything old is new again.
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#23
Quote:
Vortigern Studies:3q7zi9ww Wrote:Though both articles mention 100 fragments.
I know. And I corrected you because Jona had already described the actual number of fragments in this thread. :wink:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#24
Quote:Did they indeed offer it to the proper authorities who rejected it?
That's what I've been told today. It seems that when the scholars realized, about four years ago, what they had ignored, they were willing to pay 4000 euro.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#25
I am more interested in this:

"and when i visited him on the first one he opened some drawers in the massive hall full of artefacts from headpieces of columns to mammoth stuff, and the drawers contained scores !! of cheek-pieces of Roman helmets, scores of Pugiones !! and a lot more goodies, all never described nor researched or even catalogued...."

Confusedhock:

Is he still in touch with anyone there who could arrange for these to be at the very least colour photographed and preferably drawn? A search through any catalogues that mentioned findspots and referred on to dig reports would also be very helpful. I would be VERY happy to describe them if no-one else wants to. Big Grin D D

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#26
Quote:I am more interested in this:
Quote:"and when i visited him on the first one he opened some drawers in the massive hall full of artefacts from headpieces of columns to mammoth stuff, and the drawers contained scores !! of cheek-pieces of Roman helmets, scores of Pugiones !! and a lot more goodies, all never described nor researched or even catalogued...."
Is he still in touch with anyone there who could arrange for these to be at the very least colour photographed and preferably drawn? A search through any catalogues that mentioned findspots and referred on to dig reports would also be very helpful.
I do not know to which Dutch provincial depot MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS refers, but I know that there are right now several minor projects underway to study objects that ought to have been studied long time ago. I was told that the finds from Velsen included, when they looked better, at least one spearhead that had been classified as a nail.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#27
Its the Provincial depot near Alphen aan den Rijn if i remember correctly.

Btw Jona, lets hope the classification of the spearhead nail will not turn into it being attested as one of the nails of the holy cross, for then we would have about 600 of them Tongue

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#28
I was intrigued by Jona's comments about the commercialism of universities in The Netherlands which appears to be working against research, conservation and publication of finds. That is a depressing conclusion. In contrast, the Vindolanda Trust, a not-for-profit registered charity, offers a model of how it can be done. That the tablets from Vindolanda have been found, conserved, catalogued and published is a testament to the dedication of the Trust and its members ( http://www.vindolanda.com/ ) and the leadership of three generations of a single family - the Birleys. Long may they continue.
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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#29
I think there is an awful lot of commercialism going on all over in the museum world these days and has reached places such as even Vindolanda.
Brian Stobbs
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#30
Quote:I think there is an awful lot of commercialism going on all over in the museum world these days and has reached places such as even Vindolanda.
Which in itself is not a disaster. Because archaeology is now commercial, we have acces to more finds, and they are published more rapidly. The new problem is that our data are expanding swifter than we can comprehend. Scholarship needs to be reorganized, so that outdated information is swifter expelled and correct information spreads more swiftly. But as long as organizations like JSTOR can lock behind big doors the most recent information we have a serious problem.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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