Mykale, a naval battle?

[MeinPanzer]

Im friends with the publisher of the Munich scenes.

Peter Calmeyer? Or Lâtife Summerer? They've been published by a few people.

They don’t depict Persians, again, they are Anatolians.

The tomb was certainly Anatolian, as was the interred, but are you suggesting that an army of Anatolians is depicted fighting against Saka? Or that the prominent central figure and supporting archers in the battle scene are not Persians? The funerary procession and some of the other details are clearly Anatolian in nature, and thus this is a thoroughly provincial work, but I see no good reason to take the troops in the battle scene as anything other than Persian forces. Or do you take only the cavalrymen to be Anatolians? What about the charioteers?

They may be wearing trousers or leggings, shoes were worn with each so the fact that they are a different colour doesn't really prove anything. Trousers were more common in this area though as there is more of a Skythian influence in the dress (which is why the tunics are not so long).

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the problem with the depiction of the leggings on Greek vase paintings, then? Comparing them to the leggings of the soldiers in Median dress from Persepolis, they look almost identical.

I don't think that it is proven that the tiara was only worn by nobility in Anatolia? What about Persian garrison troops or Phrygians and Bythinians?

Can you present an example of a representation of a non-elite Bithynian or Phrygian wearing a tiara? The only examples I know of are from elite funerary stelae and from depictions like the prominent figure on the Nereid monument, or Autophradates on the Payava sarcophagus. Common Anatolian soldiers, like the footmen on the Canakkale sarcophagus who are likely Mysians (and who, it should be noted, wear long tunics, like the Ionian one, and not short ones), wear long-sleeved tunics and trousers, but no tiaras.

The gorytus would not be unusual to many Greek artists, Skythians worked in Greece and there were even Skythian artists in Greece. Again, Spara are very likely to have been taken as trophies, so it is not unlikely that a Greek artist would have seen one. Im sure if an artist was asked to paint a Persian, it was possible for him to check out what Persian items were dedicated at the local temple that he could use as reference?

And if an artist had to paint a scene of, say, Mycale, and he had access to dedicated Persian equipment, and thus could see the orientation of handles on a spara, and could speak to veterans who could relate how the Persians fought, then what is the problem with trusting the Greek depictions of the such a shield's use?

[immortal]

Fighting Skythians? Maybe I am thinking of another painted beam. Has the one you are referring to just been moved back to Istanbul?

I think I am over complicating things and generalising a bit too much. My problem with Greek depictions is that they usually show them ending at the ankle, but because of the lack of long tunics on some, they show them extending to the waist. Im probably being a bit dismissive of it all.
The point I was making about weapons was the fact that an artist may have seen 'eastern' style weapons, so he could portray their appearance accurately, but not their usage.
Thanks for all of the comments, its topics like this that really help to focus my thoughts and sweep out some of the misunderstandings!

[MeinPanzer]

Fighting Skythians? Maybe I am thinking of another painted beam. Has the one you are referring to just been moved back to Istanbul?

I'm not sure where they are now - they very well may have been repatriated, but last I heard they were still in the Munich Staatssammlung. There are four separate sections, cut down from two original beams. One beam shows a funerary
procession, with (from left to right) men on foot leading horses, a chariot, three spearmen, four cavalrymen, a man and a horse carrying some sort of pack on its back, a covered carriage followed by three mourning women, and three more cavalrymen. The other shows (again from left to right) two large archers in Persian costume, three horse archers followed by four more horse archers, a chariot, a large man in Persian costume stabbing a Saka to death while another dead enemy lies on the ground and another stands behind, a horse with its rider thrown to the ground, three Saka horse archers followed by two more, and finally two Saka archers on foot. The enemies are clearly identified as Sake Tigrakhauda based on their pointed caps and the long sagareis which three infantryman carry, and I have a hard time believing that this scene is intended to show a force primarily composed of Anatolians fighting in the far east of the empire.

I think I am over complicating things and generalising a bit too much. My problem with Greek depictions is that they usually show them ending at the ankle, but because of the lack of long tunics on some, they show them extending to the waist. Im probably being a bit dismissive of it all.

I definitely think that Greek artists distorted some things and got other just plain wrong, but all in all I think that the depictions of the 5th c. BC are fairly accurate.

The point I was making about weapons was the fact that an artist may have seen 'eastern' style weapons, so he could portray their appearance accurately, but not their usage.
Thanks for all of the comments, its topics like this that really help to focus my thoughts and sweep out some of the misunderstandings!

But, again, I think that with so many veterans of the Persian wars around in the 5th c. BC, there would have been a more than few people who could have told the artist how these arms were employed, if the artist himself did not already know from facing Persians on the battlefield.

[PMBardunias]

I definitely think that Greek artists distorted some things and got other just plain wrong

I think this occurs more than we generally credit. The notion that the vase painters were hoplites or that their audience of hoplites provided strict feedback, correcting an artist's misconceptions does not hold true in every case. For example, the hilt on the sword of the "Persian" in the vase posted above is surely upsidedown. This is not uncommon in renaissance art. I have been told it resulted from the fact that artists had model swords which were often taken apart to switch features. Some got put back wrong. Here the hilt was probably one with the blade, so it might just be a complete mistake.

I think we must be careful when viewing the details of many vases, for even if the details are correct, the way the artist has men use them may not be. Witness The other thread I stared and the odd way the artist has a hoplite with his bicep through a loop as well as his forearm through the porpax and a grip in his hand- rendering his arm unbendable!

[MeinPanzer]

I definitely think that Greek artists distorted some things and got other just plain wrong

I think this occurs more than we generally credit. The notion that the vase painters were hoplites or that their audience of hoplites provided strict feedback, correcting an artist's misconceptions does not hold true in every case. For example, the hilt on the sword of the "Persian" in the vase posted above is surely upsidedown. This is not uncommon in renaissance art. I have been told it resulted from the fact that artists had model swords which were often taken apart to switch features. Some got put back wrong. Here the hilt was probably one with the blade, so it might just be a complete mistake.

I think we must be careful when viewing the details of many vases, for even if the details are correct, the way the artist has men use them may not be. Witness The other thread I stared and the odd way the artist has a hoplite with his bicep through a loop as well as his forearm through the porpax and a grip in his hand- rendering his arm unbendable!

Maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't see anything "wrong" with that depiction. It looks like a fairly standard kopis, hilt and all, save perhaps for the fanciful curlicue guard. Can you point out in more detail what's wrong with it?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think what Paul is talking about is the guard sticking into the man's wrist if the sword was held properly.
You are right Paul,on the artistic lisense,but you also have to admit that many of the example we quote as typically wrong,are also the exceptions. The real problem is not what the exceptions have to tell -we may never know if they refer to real exception on the real world or f they're just mistakes- but what does the commodity have to tell.
A far as Greek depictions of Persians are concerned,i would propose a possible different method.
How much did Persian dress change from early 5th to 4th century? There is a vast change on the depiction style of persians in these two centuries. And although the greeks massively came in contact with Persian soldiers in the decades 290-270, i'm sure that greeks had much better idea what real Persians looked like in the fourth century than in the early fifth. Be it because of longer time of contact with them,or because Persians were more into greek things in thar period.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think what Paul is talking about is the guard sticking into the man's wrist if the sword was held properly.
You are right Paul,on the artistic lisense,but you also have to admit that many of the example we quote as typically wrong,are also the exceptions. The real problem is not what the exceptions have to tell -we may never know if they refer to real exception on the real world or f they're just mistakes- but what does the commodity have to tell.
A far as Greek depictions of Persians are concerned,i would propose a possible different method.
How much did Persian dress change from early 5th to 4th century? There is a vast change on the depiction style of persians in these two centuries. And although the greeks massively came in contact with Persian soldiers in the decades 290-270, i'm sure that greeks had much better idea what real Persians looked like in the fourth century than in the early fifth. Be it because of longer time of contact with them,or because Persians were more into greek things in thar period.
Khairete
Giannis

[MeinPanzer]

I think what Paul is talking about is the guard sticking into the man's wrist if the sword was held properly.

But we see such guards on kopides commonly in Greek art, sometimes curlicue-shaped, like this example, or with both ends curving inward towards the pommel, and, most importantly, we see these in the hands of both Greeks and non-Greeks. In that particular example the curve juts out pretty far, and I doubt it would be much of an impediment at all to its wielder.

[immortal]

Im thinking of a different beam. the one I am thinking of shows 'Persians' fighting Lydian hoplites. Sake Tigrakhauda should be wearing Median clothing also as they lived in Iran.
Persian clothing didn't change from the time of the Neo-Assyrian Empire until the Parthians. The vases showing easterners with pelta are definitely Anatolians, not Persians.
As Paul says, I would say that the majority of Greek depictions should not be taken as correct. I have looked at these intensively and the vast majority of details just don't add up.

[MeinPanzer]

Im thinking of a different beam. the one I am thinking of shows 'Persians' fighting Lydian hoplites.

I don't think I've heard of this one. Can you provide some references to publications on it? The painted beams left in situ in the Tatarli tumulus from which the battle and funerary procession beams were taken do show Anatolian hoplites with war sickles (as well as lions, a procession of chariots and men on foot, winged bulls, and birds of prey attacking a feline), but those hoplites are not fighting Persians and are engaged in some sort of ritual dance.

Sake Tigrakhauda should be wearing Median clothing also as they lived in Iran.

Saka clothing was similar to Median costume, but was significantly different - compare the Saka represented on the Persepolis royal tombs and the apadana to representations of Persians. They wore long caftans instead of tunics, had pointed caps (the most noted difference in costume), and sometimes wore long trousers instead of leggings. However, on this they are dressed almost identically to their opponents, save for their distinctive caps, with short, long-sleeved garments, tight trousers, and separate shoes - exactly the costume which you stated was Anatolian.

Persian clothing didn't change from the time of the Neo-Assyrian Empire until the Parthians.

Persian costume did change over time. One major change is that by the late 4th c. BC, Persians wore their tunics double-belted, with a significant "overhang" of cloth between the two belts. This is not seen anywhere in representations of Persians, Greek or Iranian, until the later 4th c. BC. Furthermore, a significant change was the adoption of the caftan - a nomadic piece of costume - to replace the long-sleeved tunic by the early Parthians. Another change was the adoption of flowing breeches over leggings, which had obvious benefits for cavalry combat.

[Sean Manning]

I'm also trying to figure out when the Persians started wearing those coat-capes which the Greeks called a kandys and the Persians may have called *kantus. They show up in the Oxus Treasure, and in some of the gifts carried by delegates at Persepolis (one of the small palaces built by Artaxerxes I), and on 4th century and later coins. I'm not sure which Greek author is the first to use the word (maybe Xenophon?) Do you have any thoughts? I need to find time to dig through photos from Persepolis (the reliefs are conservative, but have dates attached) and dig out an article on these garments by Tullia Linders.

[PMBardunias]

I think what Paul is talking about is the guard sticking into the man's wrist if the sword was held properly.
You are right Paul,on the artistic lisense,but you also have to admit that many of the example we quote as typically wrong,are also the exceptions.

Yes, that was what I believed was wrong. I agree that they are often exceptions, but the problem is how can we be sure when we are looking at the exception or the rule? I for one am very skeptical of anytime someone presents data on some feature showing up on a given % of images as authority for that feature. For example, grips on dory shafts only appear on a true minority of spears, but when they do it is usually on very detailed images. Thus I do not think it unlikely that the hoplite often wrapped his spear with a sleeve to act as a grip. This of course is quite dangerous, for it puts in the position of arbiter of what is more detailed/likely to be correct, but going by sheer percentage is just as flawed.

But we see such guards on kopides commonly in Greek art, sometimes curlicue-shaped, like this example, or with both ends curving inward towards the pommel, and, most importantly, we see these in the hands of both Greeks and non-Greeks. In that particular example the curve juts out pretty far, and I doubt it would be much of an impediment at all to its wielder.

I am unaware of any Khopis that shows a quillion angled back into the arm. Most don't even have a top quillion, and most bottoms, if they slope, slope backwards to protect the knuckles. Perhaps you are thinking of bronze age swords? The severly back angled quillions are usually a feature of stabbing swords, where they may in fact serve a function in causing the blade to be stabbed parallel to a foe's ribcage and less likely to bind in them.

[immortal]

I don't think I've heard of this one. Can you provide some references to publications on it? The painted beams left in situ in the Tatarli tumulus from which the battle and funerary procession beams were taken do show Anatolian hoplites with war sickles (as well as lions, a procession of chariots and men on foot, winged bulls, and birds of prey attacking a feline), but those hoplites are not fighting Persians and are engaged in some sort of ritual dance.

I'll try to find the pictures, I dont have any to hand as it is currently being published.

Saka clothing was similar to Median costume, but was significantly different - compare the Saka represented on the Persepolis royal tombs and the apadana to representations of Persians. They wore long caftans instead of tunics, had pointed caps (the most noted difference in costume), and sometimes wore long trousers instead of leggings. However, on this they are dressed almost identically to their opponents, save for their distinctive caps, with short, long-sleeved garments, tight trousers, and separate shoes - exactly the costume which you stated was Anatolian.

Yes, Saka costume was different, but I amtaking specifically about the Saka Tigrakhauda. They are shown quite clearly at Persepolis as wearing the exact same costume as the Medes, except from the head wear. And yes, this costume was also worn in areas of Anatolia, although trousers were also worn.

Persian costume did change over time. One major change is that by the late 4th c. BC, Persians wore their tunics double-belted, with a significant "overhang" of cloth between the two belts. This is not seen anywhere in representations of Persians, Greek or Iranian, until the later 4th c. BC. Furthermore, a significant change was the adoption of the caftan - a nomadic piece of costume - to replace the long-sleeved tunic by the early Parthians. Another change was the adoption of flowing breeches over leggings, which had obvious benefits for cavalry combat.

Really? what are you basing this on? trousers were often worn by cavalry and was not a later introduction.
So are you saying the Kaftan was introduced by the Parthians? is this not just agreeing with what I have said?

Sean Manning: the kandys is shown as being worn by many of the figures at Persepolis and is shown as being bought as tribute. We can say it was definatley in use buy the late 6th century. Some Assyrian art shows Medes with cloaks on, but they are rendered as Assyrian in style. These could well be kandys as well.

[MeinPanzer]

Yes, Saka costume was different, but I amtaking specifically about the Saka Tigrakhauda. They are shown quite clearly at Persepolis as wearing the exact same costume as the Medes, except from the head wear. And yes, this costume was also worn in areas of Anatolia, although trousers were also worn.

In the side-on representations as tribute bearers from Persepolis their costume looks identical, but when they are shown head-on as throne bearers, it's clear that their costume is quite different. They wear caftans and not long-sleeved tunics.

Really? what are you basing this on?

Later 4th and 3rd c. BC representations of Persians, including the Alexander sarcophagus and terracotta figurines, as well as the fact that at this time it became fashionable among the Macedonian upper classes (normally cavalrymen) to wear just such double-belted tunics - exactly when we know it became fashionable to imitate Persian costume. At this time Macedonians were living intimately with Persians, and there is no reason to suppose that they didn't know what they were representing (the Persian costume on the Alexander sarcophagus, for instance, is very accurate, including knee-length tunics, leggings, tiaras, and kandyes).

trousers were often worn by cavalry and was not a later introduction.

Yes, tighter leggings, but not flowing breeches, like those worn by the Shami statue.

So are you saying the Kaftan was introduced by the Parthians? is this not just agreeing with what I have said?

I think I may have misunderstood you. You said "Persian clothing didn't change from the time of the Neo-Assyrian Empire until the Parthians," which I took to mean that Persian costume as seen in Achaemenid times continued to be worn by the Parthians.

[Sean Manning]

Sean Manning: the kandys is shown as being worn by many of the figures at Persepolis and is shown as being bought as tribute. We can say it was definatley in use buy the late 6th century.

Could you give me some references or links to photos? Pictures of tribute aren't proof that a garment was part of Median dress. (Edit: Nevermind, Encyclopaedia Iranica has a photo from the Apadana (build under Darius I) of a man in Median dress with a kandys. Its at this URL)