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Mykale, a naval battle?
#61
Hi Ruben,

The Saka Tigrakhauda on the Apadana are wearing identical costume to the Medes, even down to the shoes and the way they are tied. The only thing different is the head dress. They also bring similar gifts as tribute. This is not supprising as they occupied The area which is now the Turkmanistan/Iran boarder. They may even be the Skythians that settled in Media after the migration in the Assyrian period.
The problem with the throne bearers is that pretty much none of them are wearing the same costume as the peoples on the Apadana.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant that the Persian/Median dress did not change until the Parthians introduced the nomadic style. Yes it changed very slightly, though the double belted tunic may have always existed, but not reproduced in earlier art.

Sean Manning:
There is no doubt that the kandys is Median. I went to Persepolis last month and can tell you that a very large number of Medes are wearing it, but no other Nation does.
I will find the earlier representations of Median and Elamite officials that are weraing a garment which could be a Kandys.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#62
Quote:
immortal:1iz4z3qr Wrote:Later 4th and 3rd c. BC representations of Persians, including the Alexander sarcophagus and terracotta figurines, as well as the fact that at this time it became fashionable among the Macedonian upper classes (normally cavalrymen) to wear just such double-belted tunics - exactly when we know it became fashionable to imitate Persian costume. At this time Macedonians were living intimately with Persians, and there is no reason to suppose that they didn't know what they were representing (the Persian costume on the Alexander sarcophagus, for instance, is very accurate, including knee-length tunics, leggings, tiaras, and kandyes).

Ruben,double belted chitons appear in greek art at least since middle 5th century. Several of the Athenians on the Parthenon frieze wear them,and if this is the persian chiton,then it had to be already existing in Persia itself!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#63
Quote:Ruben,double belted chitons appear in greek art at least since middle 5th century. Several of the Athenians on the Parthenon frieze wear them,and if this is the persian chiton,then it had to be already existing in Persia itself!
Khaire
Giannis

Hi Giannis,

That interests me greatly; do you have a picture to illustrate this? If so it would help me in my theory that the figures really are a blend of different cultures dress. I doubt that if it is Persian in origin that Athenians would want to be depicted as wearing them?
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#64
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... eze-bb.jpg
This is a very interesting one,which shows a slave boy helping the aristocrat youth drape the chiton. With his left hand he's pulling more matterial up,so it can be belted under the hidden belt.
EDIT: Also note that his chiton is long sleeved,exactly like Alexander's and the Persians' on the Alex. sarcophagus. On the Alex. mosaic,Alexander is the only greek with long sleeves,and Alexander was the first to adopt Persian dress. In the hunt fresco on the Vergina Tomb II Alexander wears a chiton draped like this,but in that case it's sleeveless

http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/87Greek.JPG
This one is clearer.

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-conten ... lockiv.jpg
And in this one the first man is wearing a muscled cuirass and under its lower edge we see the "kolpos" of the chiton,chich might have been of an "eastern" chiton,or might not. The are more depictions of it on the frieze,and perhaps in funerary stelae befor or in the beginning of the 4th century.

And here is me wearing my chiton in such way
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/473 ... 776151.jpg

I'm not sure the athenians would be very reluctant to adopt anything that was in fashion,even if it was Persian in origin(and if it was,would they know it?). Persians and Ionians were in constant contact,and if the Ionians adopted something,then why not the Athenians too?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#65
Quote:The Saka Tigrakhauda on the Apadana are wearing identical costume to the Medes, even down to the shoes and the way they are tied. The only thing different is the head dress. They also bring similar gifts as tribute. This is not supprising as they occupied The area which is now the Turkmanistan/Iran boarder. They may even be the Skythians that settled in Media after the migration in the Assyrian period.
The problem with the throne bearers is that pretty much none of them are wearing the same costume as the peoples on the Apadana.

But the costume of the throne bearers aligns much better with the other evidence we have for the costume of the Saka, both in Achaemenid art and from Saka sources. I guess it could just be assumed that the Saka tribute bearers are representative of a Medized population, while the others represent the rest of the Saka.

Quote:Ruben,double belted chitons appear in greek art at least since middle 5th century. Several of the Athenians on the Parthenon frieze wear them,and if this is the persian chiton,then it had to be already existing in Persia itself!
Khaire
Giannis
Quote:
Giannis K. Hoplite:5khcuaoi Wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...eze-bb.jpg
This is a very interesting one,which shows a slave boy helping the aristocrat youth drape the chiton. With his left hand he's pulling more matterial up,so it can be belted under the hidden belt.
EDIT: Also note that his chiton is long sleeved,exactly like Alexander's and the Persians' on the Alex. sarcophagus. On the Alex. mosaic,Alexander is the only greek with long sleeves,and Alexander was the first to adopt Persian dress. In the hunt fresco on the Vergina Tomb II Alexander wears a chiton draped like this,but in that case it's sleeveless

http://www.costumes.org/history/kohler/87Greek.JPG
This one is clearer.

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-conten ... lockiv.jpg
And in this one the first man is wearing a muscled cuirass and under its lower edge we see the "kolpos" of the chiton,chich might have been of an "eastern" chiton,or might not. The are more depictions of it on the frieze,and perhaps in funerary stelae befor or in the beginning of the 4th century.

And here is me wearing my chiton in such way
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1133/473 ... 776151.jpg

I'm not sure the athenians would be very reluctant to adopt anything that was in fashion,even if it was Persian in origin(and if it was,would they know it?). Persians and Ionians were in constant contact,and if the Ionians adopted something,then why not the Athenians too?
Khaire
Giannis

I wasn't aware of the first image - it definitely looks like a fashion adopted earlier, then. But are there any other depictions of such tunics being worn before the late 4th c. BC? It may have been adopted as a fashion in the 5th c. BC, but it certainly didn't become widespread until the time of Alexander, when many cavalrymen are depicted wearing such tunics, such as this fellow:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/image ... belted.jpg
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#66
Quote:But the costume of the throne bearers aligns much better with the other evidence we have for the costume of the Saka, both in Achaemenid art and from Saka sources. I guess it could just be assumed that the Saka tribute bearers are representative of a Medized population, while the others represent the rest of the Saka.
Yes, this is what I am trying to say. The Saka Tigrakhauda seem to look very different to the rest of the depictions of the Saka. They are also grouped with the contingents from Anatolia and Iran on the Apadana. Are there many surviving Saka depictions of themselves?

Quote:This is a very interesting one,which shows a slave boy helping the aristocrat youth drape the chiton. With his left hand he's pulling more matterial up,so it can be belted under the hidden belt.
EDIT: Also note that his chiton is long sleeved,exactly like Alexander's and the Persians' on the Alex. sarcophagus. On the Alex. mosaic,Alexander is the only greek with long sleeves,and Alexander was the first to adopt Persian dress. In the hunt fresco on the Vergina Tomb II Alexander wears a chiton draped like this,but in that case it's sleeveless

I think these are potentually very important. They are almost identical to the tunics worn by the 'Persians' on the Alexander sarcophagus. In my opinion it only backs up my theory that the majority of Greek depictions of Persians show a mix of many different styles, many of which are not Persian at all.

Quote:I'm not sure the athenians would be very reluctant to adopt anything that was in fashion,even if it was Persian in origin(and if it was,would they know it?). Persians and Ionians were in constant contact,and if the Ionians adopted something,then why not the Athenians too?

I think they would be reluctant to depict Persian dress in the Parthenon, seeing as it was built on the ruins of the site the Persians destroyed. If it was Persian in origin, I think they would know about it. Even if it was eastern, why would they depict an Athenian wearing anything but Greek clothing on a monument that was promoting the pinnacle of Greek (or Athenian) civilization? We know from Xenophon’s comments on the Ionians that they were not particularly fond of them. Also, are these horsemen not supposed to depict the casualties at Marathon (or is this a myth?).
I think the fact that this is only shown in Greek art speaks volumes.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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#67
The Parthenon depicts the Athenians as closely as possible. They ar not the casualties of marathon,but the picture of the real Athenians of their time,which are celebrating the Panatheneia,the biggest festival of the city. If Persian clothing had had an influence in Athenian fashion,which is not all that unbelievable, then the artists on Parthenon wouldn't have any reluctance to depict them as they really were. The real Propaganda of the Parthenon was not the symbols or heroes or myths depicte on it,but the fact that together with the gods and heroes, on the same building the Athenians couls see themselves. Pericles' funeral speech speaks volumes of this attitude: in short he said "lets stop praising our fathers and ancestors,because we are the real ones that made Athens the greatest city in Greece".

Now,if this type of chiton is really Persian,or just Anatolian or even Greek,i can't tell. But it is clear that the Greeks associated it with Eastern clothing(Amazons wear this chiton often) and Alexander who is famous for adopting Persian (not Anatolian) clothing, is often wearing it.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#68
Is this the same type of chiton? There are a few vases showing the chiton let down at the waist, but I wondered why the belt was visible. Hoplites often lift the hem of their chiton and allow it to fall over the belt. This leads to those images that look like the hoplite is wearing a more "fleecey" over-garment. Perhaps the origin of the double belt fashion was for Persians to be able to have a visable belt while at the same time tuck up their long garment. I wonder if there is any correlation with the popularization of cavalry at Athens.
Paul M. Bardunias
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#69
Quote:Yes, this is what I am trying to say. The Saka Tigrakhauda seem to look very different to the rest of the depictions of the Saka. They are also grouped with the contingents from Anatolia and Iran on the Apadana. Are there many surviving Saka depictions of themselves?

I see. I've never realized this before, but it makes sense, especially considering the difficulties many kings had with the recalcitrant Saka populations living on the more distant marches of the empire. As for the Saka depictions of themselves, yes, there are a number. One important one is the embroidered tapestry from Pazyryk showing a cavalryman and a woman, but there's also many metal representations, including figured belt buckles and models in the round, like those mounted on braziers associated with Zoroastrianism which have been found in the region of Kazakhstan.

Quote:I think these are potentually very important. They are almost identical to the tunics worn by the 'Persians' on the Alexander sarcophagus. In my opinion it only backs up my theory that the majority of Greek depictions of Persians show a mix of many different styles, many of which are not Persian at all.

I think they would be reluctant to depict Persian dress in the Parthenon, seeing as it was built on the ruins of the site the Persians destroyed. If it was Persian in origin, I think they would know about it. Even if it was eastern, why would they depict an Athenian wearing anything but Greek clothing on a monument that was promoting the pinnacle of Greek (or Athenian) civilization? We know from Xenophon’s comments on the Ionians that they were not particularly fond of them. Also, are these horsemen not supposed to depict the casualties at Marathon (or is this a myth?).
I think the fact that this is only shown in Greek art speaks volumes.

You seem to be approaching this from too modern a perspective. You have to remember that though the Persians were viewed as the great enemy during the Persian wars, in the years that followed they were intimately involved in Greek politics and, as the major power in the eastern Mediterranean, had an enormous cultural influence on that portion of the world, including Greece. You state that the Greeks would not have shown Persian dress on a site the Persians destroyed, but you are forgetting that one of the most important buildings erected in the middle of the 5th c. BC besides the Acropolis, the Odeon of Pericles, is widely regarded to have been based on Persian architecture, either drawing from the design of the tent of the King of Kings or the apadana.

The Greeks did not view ethnicity and national identity the same way we do. Nor would they have viewed the Parthenon as some sort of monument which had to promote a particular view of the Athenian citizenry. Giannis said it better than I can - if Persian-style tunics were stylish, then the artist probably simply reflected everyday life in the monument.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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