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Septimius Severus\' British campaign on UK C4 TV
#16
Quote:The figure of 40,000 for the army in Scotland is quoted a bit online, and seems to derive from an estimate of the force needed to fill the series of (probably Severan) 165-acre camps. Dio isn't much help - he claims that 50,000 men died on the expedition! Nicholas Reed ..... estimates the total force as something equivilent to six legions (the three 'British' legions, plus the 10,000-strong Praetorian Guard and II Parthica) - which, with auxiliaries added, could indeed total around 40,000.
- Nathan

I take your point, Nathan. The army increased steadily throughout and beyond this period.I've seen figures of 450,000 men quoted for the army of Diocletian. However, if this is indeed the case, then it implies that the province of Britannia was stripped of its legions to form the army that 'invaded' Caledonia. Ancient writers are notorious for exaggerating numbers. As you mention, Casius Dio suggested a figure for the losses that was actually larger than the army SS was supposed to have led into the wilds! Such losses would be comparable to those suffered by the Republican army at Cannae! Or at Aquae Sexitae.

It strikes me that a better (or, at least, alternative) explanation for the size of those camps is that they were not completely given over to troop accommodation but were also supply depots (rather like Arbaea). Even if you are going to 'park' substantial forces along your route, that's still an awful lot of supplies that have to be hauled through hostile country, where there are no roads.

My main point was not so much to question the size of the Severan army, but for the programme to tell me where this information came from and to frame some sort of discussion as to how likely it was that a force of this size was actually assembled. I don't think that they even mentioned what legions were forming the garrison of Britannia at that time - much less where all the other troops could have come from. Obscure aerial views of what might have been large Severan camps/supply dumps is no real substituite for some reasoned discussion on the topic.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#17
Quote:from a channel resposible for Big Brother.
Hmm...so who is watching whom?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#18
Quote: However, if this is indeed the case, then it implies that the province of Britannia was stripped of its legions to form the army that 'invaded' Caledonia.

Oh sure, there's nothing definite. However, by this point southern Britain had been peaceable for nearly 150 years, and the three legions stationed there seem to have been largely intended as a defence against threats from the north. Spain, much larger, got by with only one legion, and Gaul with barely more. For an emperor campaigning in the north, the three legions in Britain could, I think, be used almost in totality, with only skeleton garrisons left behind in case of, say, a sudden uprising by the Silures :wink: .

Quote:Obscure aerial views of what might have been large Severan camps/supply dumps is no real substituite for some reasoned discussion on the topic.

Well, I think we can agree that the program in question was a sizeable heap of fluff, and reasoned discussion not really their bag! It is a shame, when you consider the amount of time and money surely spent on the thing, that something half decent couldn't have been done. Hard to see, really, who the makers were intending to please, or even interest... Sad

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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#19
Was the supply depot at Carpow Severen or Agricolan?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#20
Quote:Nathan:
Hard to see, really, who the makers were intending to please, or even interest...

I think that is the source of the problem - they didn't sort this out before they started to put the programme together. This looks like a "Sun" 'newspaper' (my italic) version - only not that good!

Occupation at Caerleon/Isca by legio II Augusta in this period is a bit of a dark horse. We know, of course, that substantial portions of the legion were involved in the construction of Hadrian's Wall in the 120s and that there seems to have been only a single cohort left here at Isca (the 7th), who were involved in rebuilding their barracks in stone. Because the site has been excavated piecemeal, there really isn't a coherent picture of occupation. We do know that there was a presence here until some time in the late 4th century but this doesn't really help as we don't know the crucial factor - how many of the legion were there at any one time!

I can certainly believe that SS removed most of the troops from the garrison sites at Caerleon, Chester and York. I wonder, however, just what the paper strengths of those three legions were? The Vindolanda tablets (and other sources) seem to suggest that numerical strengths 'on paper' were rarely, if ever, achieved (other than when the unit was first raised and maybe not even then). Legions that had been in garrisons for decades (in the case of leg II Aug for well over 100 years) would, I would think, have been forced to recruit locally and that might well mean that they would have been reluctant to leave their nice warm barracks (and women - also warm) and march away up into the wilds of Caledonia. It all comes down to what might well have been a very much smaller force than that recorded by ancient sources. There may well have been elements of 7 or 8 legions involved - but with much smaller numbers than this would have been if they were at full strength.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus - a "revolting Silure")
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#21
Quote:Was the supply depot at Carpow Severen or Agricolan?

Severan, I believe. Unworn coins from Severus and Caracalla were found there, and a Caracallan inscription, and nothing much before that. Probably a relatively short occupation, then - c208-c215 maybe...

Quote:It all comes down to what might well have been a very much smaller force than that recorded by ancient sources. There may well have been elements of 7 or 8 legions involved - but with much smaller numbers than this would have been if they were at full strength.

That could be right - 'ancient sources', especially the later ones, tend to be a bit fishy about numbers etc. Herodian himself says, in regard to Lugdunum, 'Each contemporary historian has recorded to suit his own purpose the actual number of those killed and captured on each side.' He does, however, also remark in the same passage that 'no battles and no victories can be compared to those of Severus, and no army to the size of his army; there are no comparable uprisings among nations, or total number of campaigns, or length and speed of marches.' (Herodian, 3.7). I think we could safely say that the campaigning force in 208 was pretty large, then - it was an Imperial expedition, with both Augusti leading in person, and intended as a demonstration of the power of Rome and the emperor(s), rather than a mere punitive expedition. Beyond that, though...

Quote:Occupation at Caerleon/Isca by legio II Augusta in this period is a bit of a dark horse...We do know that there was a presence here until some time in the late 4th century

Bit of an off-topic point, but I read somewhere (!!) recently that Caerleon was probably turned over to civilian use in the late 3rd C, and II Augusta moved to the fort at Cardiff. I don't recall where I got that, unfortunately! Is there a military presence attested there later, then?

- Nathan
Nathan Ross
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#22
Quote:Nathan:
Bit of an off-topic point, but I read somewhere (!!) recently that Caerleon was probably turned over to civilian use in the late 3rd C, and II Augusta moved to the fort at Cardiff. I don't recall where I got that, unfortunately! Is there a military presence attested there later, then?

First I've heard of it! Smile There is no attestation for any given military unit at Cardiff. I put up the available info somewhere else on this site about the size, dates, etc. of the four forts that were built at Cardiff and the last one certainly went into the 4th century. There is a thought that the remnants of leg II Aug eventually ended up at one of the Saxon Shore forts (Richborough?) under the name of leg II Brittones - but at a much reduced size (around 1,000 men, I think).

This history of occupation at Caerleon is vague towards the end. We do have an insciption that relates to SS and Caracalla, with the obligatory 'damned memory' errasure of the name of Geta (RIB 326). It would not surprise me at all that Caerleon became a civilian settlement - which, after all, was the fate of the majority of Roman military sites eventually. The place was visited by Geoffrey of Monmouth in the 12th century and much of it (the stone buildings, anyway) was still standing then. The baths were still there (albeit lacking a roof), as was the tetrapylon by where the museum is standing now. This last was found when the museum was rebuilt in the 1980s. It must have been an imposing monument.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#23
Quote:Was the supply depot at Carpow Severen or Agricolan?
See this thread. We should probably call it a small fortress, rather than a supply depot.

Quote:My main point was not so much to question the size of the Severan army, but for the programme to tell me where this information came from and to frame some sort of discussion as to how likely it was that a force of this size was actually assembled.
I discussed this very matter with the producer last year, and a half-day's filming at Cramond was mentioned; but it seems I was bumped in preference to Tom Holland sitting in the sun at Lepcis. So I hope you found his deeply philosophical remarks about the Caledonians "cheating" at fighting more entertaining than me droning on about which legions might've been involved. :wink:
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#24
Quote:D.B. Campbell wrote:
So I hope you found his deeply philosophical remarks about the Caledonians "cheating" at fighting more entertaining than me droning on about which legions might've been involved.

Er - that would be a 'no' to that one! :lol: I'd much rather have had the 'drone' that the fatuous travelogue.

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#25
Quote:the Caledonians "cheating"
Cheating? Last time I heard, "There ain't no rules in a knife fight."
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#26
It is mentioned here: http://antoninuspius.blogspot.com/. Sounds ... intresting.
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#27
Quote:
Quote:the Caledonians "cheating"
Cheating? Last time I heard, "There ain't no rules in a knife fight."
The rules state quite clearly, the enemy will charge the lines of the legions in an unorgqanized mass, flailing wildly with their longswords,
then throwing themselves onto the points of the gladii of the legions. Anything else is just cheating.... :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#28
:lol: :wink:
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply


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