Spolas (...thorax ek dermatos...)

[Ghostmojo]

I'd like to see somebody make one of these things that wasn't white. The photos above are excellent - a very nice piece of work. However, I don't believe all troops would have opted for white - particularly Spartans who had an aversion to that colour (associated with women). Therefore, I would proffer that some troops would have dyed these garment another colour on occasion - the Lakedaimonian troops possibly crimson/red to match their chitons etc. Anybody any views on this?

[Kineas]

Care to give a source to that sentiment about white?

Anyway, we have a blue thorax, a red one, a brown one, and a black one. A burgundy one, and a white one. That's just in one group of 18 hoplites... I'm a little iffy on the blue.

But here's the issue.

Red leather in ancient Greek times was achievable, but at least as late as Sappho, it came from Lydia and wasn't common. We don't know for sure how leather was dyed red. Blue would have been even more complex, but again, someone did it. There's cloth in blue from Brauron and blue leather from at least wode and perhaps indigo--although every one of those statements could be argued with by a professional costumer.

A colour NEVER mentioned in period sources is green, but a turqouise green is dead easy to get out of copper sulfates, and Greeks knew how to get those.But it looks to me as if they didn't.

But the easiest colours were a zillion shades of tannin-rich brown. Some redder. Some paler.

and white, because of the Athenian alum deposits and tanning industry.

Now, some of the academic costumers believe that Greeks had very strong religious commitment to colours and others say, no, that's all hooey. This doesn't help!

And with all due respect--and I mean that, I'm not being an ass--we really don't know a thing about the Spartans. I mean,as a distinct military entity. We know what some non-Spartans said about them, heavily coloured by their own prejudices against things Athenian or otherwise....

Love to see your comment on white, though.

[Ghostmojo]

Care to give a source to that sentiment about white?

......................................................

Love to see your comment on white, though.

I have read this in one of my books I swear - but I can't for the life of me remember where. I will make an effort to wade through them at some point.

The basic point, however, was simple. The Spartans believed the colour white was associated with women and femininity, therefore they sought to distance themselves from it on their male warriors - one (but not the only) reason for choosing the crimson tunic. If this rationale applied to their chiton, achiton, himation, exomis, chlamys etc.; then it may well have extended to their linothorakes as well.

[KrimzonKnight]

"Now as for their equipment for battle, he arranged that they should have a red cloak and a bronze shield, on the reckoning that the former presents the greatest contrast with any female dress, as well as the most warlike appearance; the latter certainly can be polished ver quickly and is very slow to tarnish."

- Xenophon, in his "spartan society"

it only says cloak, not chiton? so where do people get that Spartans wore red chiton? It seems to be a generally accepted view, so I assume there must be other sources. I suppose if they preferred red for their cloaks, its safe to assume the same for their clothing as well.

[John Conyard]

Like so much else about the tube and yoke, the colour is questionable.

On black figure vases armours are painted white, and on red figure vases they are left natural red/orange. On the later Douris cup they are red and black. Etruscan wall paintings show red contrasted with dark blue/black. Ariston has yellow highlighted in blue.

Colour could be dyed, painted or inked. Or even woven into fabric!

I think we could go as far as suggesting vegetable tanned leather can be made many different colours and that such leather tanned using alum would be white which makes a good base for decoration.

[Kineas]

"Now as for their equipment for battle, he arranged that they should have a red cloak and a bronze shield, on the reckoning that the former presents the greatest contrast with any female dress, as well as the most warlike appearance; the latter certainly can be polished ver quickly and is very slow to tarnish."

- Xenophon, in his "spartan society"

it only says cloak, not chiton? so where do people get that Spartans wore red chiton? It seems to be a generally accepted view, so I assume there must be other sources. I suppose if they preferred red for their cloaks, its safe to assume the same for their clothing as well.

Now, neither of those says a thing about body armour.

Elsewhere, you find suggestions that the Spartans were the last to be wearing bronze (and like you, I can't remember--is it the suggestion in Thucydides that they were the "heaviest?".But regardless--why associate white with femininity? The colours of femininity were yellow and orange, in ancient Greece. This is so easily proven I'll just say "go look." Look at what Lysistrada wears, or what girls wore when they made the transition from girlhood to maidenhood, or what colours are considered "sexy" or indicated a man was effeminate...

white is the colour of purity and religious devotion. Even that is a bit of a stretch.. off white, or natural white, was not a colour with any specific meaning. Only PURE white had another symbolism..

and hey, I'm sorry to sound pedantic, but this info is in all the literature.

[John Conyard]

Poor old Aristion, but he does pre-date the Lysistrata by 100 years or so. In the Lysistrata he would have been wearing a Pilos helmet. And I suspect the issue in the Lysistrata are the yellow garments in silk. But understand your general drift.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hmm, ok,i guess we can rule out black and clay-orange because these were the basic colours in red and black figure vases. The other two colours used in them are red and white. Red has been used few times on black figure for details, like parts of the shoulder guards, and the rest of the cuirass was black, since the style was black figure. White,though, is much more frequently depicted.
Now, white is not only depicted on vases, but also on wall paintings. There are italian wall paintings that use a very big range of colours, so many that shades of the skin and shadows are represented,and still, the tube and yoke cuirass in all of them is white, with details in black, blue and red, with perhaps some bits of bronze.
The only evidence for a different colour come from 4th century macedonian tombs, that show a buffy purple colour worn by two bodyguards on foot accompanying their lords riding to a symposium. And "Philip's" iron cuirass in Vergina was covered with purple linen.
But even in macedonia there are another three tube and yoke cuirasses that are basicly white, one of them having a small part of this pink/purple.
The Aristion stele colours might be controversial, because i have yet to see a detailed explanation of how they have been reconstructed, or a scientist's explanation. Remember that whatever metal bit on him is painted blue,including his cuirasses attachment points...
So, instead of asking for more variety of colours, i would preffer to see more white cuirasses, especially of alum white leather. I can perhaps show you more black t&y cuirasses than white, and some red ones,and a couple of blue ones, and this is off the top of my head!
But i still don't see any evidence for the Spartans wanting to use red or even worse -specifically not white colour on their tube and yokes.
Khairete
Giannis

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was under the impression it was their cloaks and or tunics that were red, or crimson?

[John Conyard]

Tunics!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So the colour of the armour they wore would hardly be the same (it might be), but white would give a certain impression on the field! Was Alum tanning common in Ancient Greece?
Someone recently stated Alum tanned leather was prone to rapid rotting in wet conditions.
I wonder how it would survive a summer downpour in Attica? (or any part of Greece for that matter mile: )

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It seems that alum tawed and vegetable tanned with alum added in the process have different properties. And the latter is what would probably be used in greece.

[John Conyard]

I am smiling!

Many books suggest that Phillip's armour was covered in material and it is good to have you confirm it.

And I am pleased to see you acknowledge that vegetable tanned leather, whitened by alum, was generally used for armour. http://comitatus.net/pdfs/LEATHERARMOUR.pdf It certainly is the sensible suggestion.

I hope your few days were a success?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi John
Traces of fabric were found on the cuirass and some of it under the gold decoration, so it certainly was the cover of the cuirass and not some other fabric placed over it in the tomb. It was also crimson, and although i didn't ask for the evidence, they have found the pigment in other pieces of fabric, even when the threads haven't survived.

Now, my acknowledgement of the use of veg. tanned leather with alum is by no means a confirmation, but it seems sensible to me.

My few days have been a success ;-)

Khaire
Giannis

[Athena Areias]

Another question!

What is the "kickout" dimension for the curve in the shoulder-piece? If the piece is, say 17 inches (432mm) across at the peak of the shoulder, what is the dimension across the front flaps if laid flat? I'm trying to rough-in the necessary flare so I can cut out the rest of my "papyrothorax".

Thanks.