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Single Combat during the Trojan War
#46
Quote:Can we get a revised timeline?
Not really. It hasn't been finalised. If you can borrow Centuries of Darkness you'll find one attempted revision. If you read Furlong's PhD, the link to which has already been posted, you'll see a slightly different one.

Start by reading everything on this site and following the links
http://www.centuries.co.uk/index.htm

SCIEM 2000 is an Austrian institution devoted to synchronising the various chronologies.
http://www.winserion.org/SCIEM2000/index.html
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#47
Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar:vx3qya0f Wrote:One thing I do recall from the Iliad was the recounting of all the different custom armour the heros wore....
and the variety.
.

Quote:Actually there is very little of this.

What about the theme of Achillis armour which was so distinctive, his cousin wore it to inspire the troops to fight when Achillis bowed out?
I realise probably not enough detail to make a reconstruction, but there was reference enough to know it existed, surely?


Quote:Shields are different. There is more than enough detail to make a fairly accurate reconstruction.

It was an exercise in text analysis and gave me an excuse to practice translating Homer. Of course all this assumes that Homer was actually describing REAL events and equipment. I have a finished article on Homeric shields that is looking for a home if someone can suggest a publication.

At least you cantranslate it from the original text....I am working from memeory, as it was story book reading/listening in school when I first started,
so imagination and illustration play a lot on my memory unfortunately.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#48
Quote:[What about the theme of Achillis armour which was so distinctive, his cousin wore it to inspire the troops to fight when Achillis bowed out?
I realise probably not enough detail to make a reconstruction, but there was reference enough to know it existed, surely?.
There is very little. It is made of bronze. IIRC his greaves are tin. There is a passage saying that he moved his arms around when first putting it on to see that it fit properly. Connolly reckons that this might be an indication of some sort of shoulder protection. That is about it.

His helmet has more detail (from Lattimore).
Massive and fitting close to his temples, lovely and intricate work, and laid a gold top-ridge along it [18.610-11] … and with the glittering helm with the four horns he nodded; the lovely golden fringes were shaken about it which Hephaistos had driven close along the horn of the helmet. [22.314-16]

Elsewhere it says that it is “hollow-eyed”, which implies wide cheek guards (confirmed on lines 16.106; 17.294; 20.397) and some sort of nasal protruding down over the nose, leaving only the eyes and front of the face exposed.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#49
The Shield of Achilles made by Hephaestus was described in my version of the Iliad in much detail.
The New Armor of Achilles-pg.225(the simplified notes)

Construction
-large and strong
-threefold rim?
-silver baldric
-five layers of hide under metal

Decoration
-Earth, Sky and Sea
-Sun and Full Moon
-Two Cities of Men
City 1 - Wedding Ceremony, Law scene(Argument over Blood Price of a killed man) ending with judgement by elders
City 2 - Siege and agriculture scenes

This is a very short description. There is much more detail that I omit as I give a basic Idea. I would (if possible) prefer a separate translation from original Greek though I know that is much to ask. The many versions/translations are confusing. :|
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

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#50
Quote:
Dan Howard:vyncjy43 Wrote:John Bimson and Juan Tebes applied the new chronology to the Timna site and found that only by revising the timeline by the full 250 years could the previous inconsistencies between the Egyptian and Assyrian dating systems be resolved.
That sound very promising, because that is the main problem of redating a chronology - it still has to fit with all the other chronologies. If you shorthen one by 250 years, you must perhaps do that to every related one. Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite, etc.
James' argument is that the Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite, and so on chronologies all depend on Egypt to attach dates to the fuzzier parts of the king lists. A big part of his book is showing where absolute dates in one region depend on another, and arguing that the traditional dates for Egypt are the lynchpin to the whole system.

I haven't studied LBA chronology enough to have an opinion myself, but even James' critics (like the Aegean Dendrochronology Project) seem to agree that Bronze Age archaeologists have to do more absolute dating to test the numbers currently attached to relative dates. Also, Egyptologists seem to have given up using the Sothic cycle to fix some dates in Egyptian history.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#51
Quote:I haven't studied LBA chronology enough to have an opinion myself, but even James' critics (like the Aegean Dendrochronology Project) seem to agree that Bronze Age archaeologists have to do more absolute dating to test the numbers currently attached to relative dates. Also, Egyptologists seem to have given up using the Sothic cycle to fix some dates in Egyptian history.
I thnk we have two problems here.

One is that archaeology would like to date every find, which they can't for lack of hard datable objects. C14, dendrochronology et al can do a lot, but still leaves gaps. As a result we have to depend for a great deal on interpreting pottery etc., which can be problematic because it's no absolute dating system. And I've come across plenty of 'messy' discussions about such interpretations. Such as how often a cobbled floor had to be renewed - suggestions varied from once every 60 years to once every 6 years! Comparing helmets, swords, buildings and pottery styles is the same as discussing cobbled floors - we DON’T KNOW what the reality behind these perceived systems is. Often enough it’s a mirage based on perceived development. Compare the Deir el Medinah helmet - is it late 3rd c. AD, or late 5th c. AD? Experts disagree.

A related problem is that the Near East has been researched for a good century already and that the reputations of many scholars rest on theories based on ‘petrified’ information. Letting go of some of that information is, as Dan rightly observed, sometimes hard to do.

The second problem is that of historical texts as sources for dating. Especially when evidence is scarce you see that a lot hangs in the balance. Often enough an 'honest' use of some texts would mean that large gaps must fall, and not enough historians are prepared to let go of that context. We MUST discard the evidence of some sources, no matter the results.
But here, too, many theories rest on constructions already made in the 1930s and never changed after that.

The inverted pyramid (pardon the expression) based on the only seemingly consistent chronology (that of Egypt) is immense, but has large gaps. The construction becomes a mix of historical king-lists and attached styles of pottery, weapons, architecture etc., ranging from the Nile to Europe and India. Of course it should be easy to recognize the problems, as I think CoD has done (and Velikovski before them). But on the other hand it’s equally difficult to ‘leave out’ a number of years (which they both did), because this uses the flawed inverted pyramid in the very same manner - they also use the construct of dated textual evidence and archaeological dating systems as if leaving out a certain amount of time would alter anything to the nature of the evidence.

Which it of course doesn’t, because it’s only a new matter of interpreting the same evidence. So far the jury is still out I think, and it will be very interesting where a new consensus ends up.
Robert Vermaat
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THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
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