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Protest against abolishing Latin on Leiden Univ Diplomas!
#31
The vomiting habits were expressed yesterday when the proles voted for the PVV.

The hilarious thing today being the utter 180 degree turn on one of the great breaking points in the forming of any coalition by the leader of the PVV, namely the age of pension start which most want at 65, but the neo liberals want to up to 67....

Well...... we see the conformism has started....

and about the petition.... its over 3.000 which no one expected in the first place... Smile

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#32
Quote:Vortigern Studies wrote:

No, you have two of those, is it not? Three when you count the King as a seperate one.

Two? We have six (not counting the king!). This is not a joke.

-Federale regering
-Vlaamse gewest
-Waalse gewest
-Franse gemeenschap
-Duitse gemeenschap
-Brussels hoofdstedelijk gewest

Every one of these have both a government and a parliament!
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#33
And dont forget the covert state: Rijkswacht......
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#34
This is one piece of Amsterdam I collected on my camera: [attachment=0:d37b4xp0]<!-- ia0 hsnuiv.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:d37b4xp0]

I imagine sometimes it might be hard to translate every modern concept into Latin, otherwise I'd rather agree with Henk.

I don't know about others, but in my case, those bits of Latin and Greek still surviving in modern talk (casual or not) really made me want to know more about those languages. If Latin and Greek were as dead as Akkadian, probably I'd knew way less, some few disarticulated words I wouldn't even form a sentence with, let alone understand an ancient text.

As for traditions, they are universal, only that most people don't see it, especially those voicing opinions against them. We would have no culture without traditions.
Just take a look of how we write these words, echoing pronunciations long gone Wink
Drago?
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#35
Quote:This is one piece of Amsterdam I collected on my camera: [attachment=0:12b4bt96]<!-- ia0 hsnuiv.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:12b4bt96]
I very much regret that. I live close to it. It is as if those people were proud of their vulgarity. Some tourists looking at it, are almost shocked, and I understand why.
Quote:I don't know about others, but in my case, those bits of Latin and Greek still surviving in modern talk (casual or not) really made me want to know more about those languages.
Yes, that's how it all started with me; but I try to see the classics as one part of history, not a special part. I love Latin poetry, but that does not mean that I think that it is better, or more worthy of respect than other poetry. So, I see no reason to retain Latin as a special language for diplomas.
Quote:As for traditions, they are universal, only that most people don't see it, especially those voicing opinions against them. We would have no culture without traditions.
I think that is exaggerated. Traditions exist, but they are reinvented every day. That's what the linguistic turn in sociology is all about: traditions are recursive.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#36
Quote:I very much regret that. I live close to it. It is as if those people were proud of their vulgarity. Some tourists looking at it, are almost shocked, and I understand why.
I really don't know the history of that building, but to me it looked like a joke, a very good one, not so much in message, but in context. Such a vulgarity is exposed in plain sight, few realize it and even fewer seem to care. As if it matters more the text was written in Latin than what it actually says.

And Dutch is no Romance language, because otherwise that sentence can be understood by some people with almost no knowledge of Latin: homo sapiens is a well-known Latinism, the verb is obvious and for ventus see Italian vento, French vent, Spanish viento etc. My wife got it almost instantly and she usually asks me for translations.

Nevertheless that is just one example. While zigzagging on the streets and canals of Amsterdam I saw houses with more pious inscriptions such as religione et probitate or salvs hvic domvi. And of course there are many facades showing anno with dates ranging from 16th to 20th century.

Quote:Yes, that's how it all started with me; but I try to see the classics as one part of history, not a special part. I love Latin poetry, but that does not mean that I think that it is better, or more worthy of respect than other poetry. So, I see no reason to retain Latin as a special language for diplomas.
My favorite poets are certainly not the Roman ones, however Latin is not only the language of the Roman Empire, but a language of (Western) European culture for many centuries. And when I say culture, I mean almost every aspect of it, for example, Isaac Newton's famous Principia. The use of Latin in European universities is rather a medieval tradition, a nice tradition if you ask me. And unlike you, I believe that supporting universities (with their decisions to keep their traditions or not) makes sense.

Quote:I think that is exaggerated. Traditions exist, but they are reinvented every day. That's what the linguistic turn in sociology is all about: traditions are recursive.
I really don't think so.

I'll explain with my example - writing vs pronunciation. For centuries the word "write" has been spelled w+r+i+t+e. Some people created ("invented") new spellings, but in overwhelming majority those were actually misspellings and failed to become part of this tradition. At some point some new spelling may prevail, but it's not an everyday process. Some words preserve a certain written form for thousands of years! And what makes the tradition what it is, is that the spelling w+r+i+t+e does not reflect our pronunciation today. We inherited that spelling from the past and most of us preserve it without questioning it.
Drago?
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#37
Quote:
Jona Lendering:1s4xqlar Wrote:I think that is exaggerated. Traditions exist, but they are reinvented every day. That's what the linguistic turn in sociology is all about: traditions are recursive.
I really don't think so.

I'll explain with my example - writing vs pronunciation. For centuries the word "write" has been spelled w+r+i+t+e. Some people created ("invented") new spellings, but in overwhelming majority those were actually misspellings and failed to become part of this tradition. At some point some new spelling may prevail, but it's not an everyday process.
I get your point and you're right about that. But spelling is a useful tradition; it helps communication if we all spell words the same. I was thinking of a different type of tradition: social customs, habits. Once upon a time it was useful to write diplomas in Latin, because that was the language of international scholarship and science. Right now, it's English, so if we want to remain practical, we should change. Retaining Latin means you're petrifying a custom that has lost its function long time ago.

But the point that really irritates me is that the demonstrators betray a profound lack of understanding what really matters. Our universities, our scholars and scientists, are no longer good enough. Partly, the universities are themselves to blame. They did not fight back when they should have done so (1980s). Many people - not lunatics, but serious people with a good education - have reasons to distrust the universities (more...). The universities have a serious image problem.

There are many causes to go out and demonstrate. Keeping Latin diplomas is, in my view, not one of them.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#38
When I saw the slogan I thought it was meant as a joke. I thought they had replaced the latin exclamation 'O' by the english 'Oh' Smile
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
Reply
#39
Sebastiaan did exactly that....

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
Reply
#40
Quote:I get your point and you're right about that. But spelling is a useful tradition; it helps communication if we all spell words the same. I was thinking of a different type of tradition: social customs, habits. Once upon a time it was useful to write diplomas in Latin, because that was the language of international scholarship and science. Right now, it's English, so if we want to remain practical, we should change. Retaining Latin means you're petrifying a custom that has lost its function long time ago.

But the point that really irritates me is that the demonstrators betray a profound lack of understanding what really matters. Our universities, our scholars and scientists, are no longer good enough. Partly, the universities are themselves to blame. They did not fight back when they should have done so (1980s). Many people - not lunatics, but serious people with a good education - have reasons to distrust the universities (more...). The universities have a serious image problem.


Well, it's not only about spelling the same way, but also in a particular way and that is a habit. We could all use a quasi-phonetic orthography and yet we don't. Today we could all use IPA and we wouldn't care about several alphabets worldwide. From at least one point of view things would be much more simpler: once we learn how to speak a language, we'd also know how to write it as well.

In my opinion the drive is the tradition and the existence of a substantial body of literature. We reprint most of it anyway, but I guess we wouldn't want our recent 'classic' works shifting forms so often, as our languages evolve (Spanish or Italian evolved from Latin, but Latin literature isn't Spanish or Italian, it's not felt like Spanish or Italian). There are several other aspects of language influenced by having such traditions such as literary archaisms and phraseology (in English we still have echoes from Shakespeare and pirate talk Tongue )

Similar processes happened in Antiquity. As a rule of thumb the ancient alphabetic spelling was quasi-phonetic. And we see as the pronunciations evolved the orthography often did not. Maybe also because they wouldn't want to change Homer and the other classics (they recopied those works over and over anyway, so it was not a matter of costly rewriting). Epigraphic evidence illustrates this gap. The barely literate people couldn't care less about the rigors of obsolete spelling and they did what it seemed most reasonable to them: they approximated the language they spoke in the alphabet they knew - be it Greek or Latin.
On the other hand, in analogy with the modern use of Latin, some Greek authors of Late Antiquity wrote in Attic Greek, no longer spoken in their time. Some of us, from a teleological perspective, may see it as an exercise in futility, yet very probably it was a display of erudition and prestige from their side.

Such things are, in your words, petrified customs. We can't get rid of them unless we sacrifice most of what we call culture.


Back to our times, today English is an international language in the world, but is it the language of scholarship?

Let's suppose we want to study the geography of Eastern Roman Empire, as it is reflected in the works of Procopius Caesarensis. If our only language is English, we'd better study something else! The current (but obsolete) edition of De Aedificiis is Haury's (improved by Wirth in the 60s) and there's an English translation by Dewing. But we'd better stick to the critical edition if we need those names in Greek with their variae lectiones. However Haury's apparatus criticus is in Latin! Moving forward, on the identification of fortifications, churches and so on, the major, seminal work (even though obsolete in several regards) is Veselin Beševliev's Zur Deutung der Kastellnamen in Prokops Werk "De aedificiis" (Amsterdam 1970). Depending on our focus, we'll find numerous other studies, many in Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian (obviously, the works on geography, toponymy, questions of identification, etc. get mostly published in local journals and that is also true for a large part of the archaeological research) but also many others in German, Russian, French (e.g. M. Perrin-Henry's "La place des listes toponymiques dans l'organisation du livre IV des Édifices de Procope" in Geographica Byzantina, Paris 1981). Obviously there are some materials in English as well, but clearly insufficient.
Moreover we need Latin in modern scholarship not only to read some critical editions, but also corpora of inscriptions. I'm mostly familiar with Balkan inscriptions so I'm bringing as example G. Mihailov's Inscriptiones Graecae in Bulgaria repertae, Sofia 1958-97 (IGB I was published first time in 1956, but it was reedited in 1970). So if one needs to make an argument over a Greek inscription, edited in Latin, what should he/she do? Rely on some other work in English which happened to mention that inscription (but perhaps failed to point out vital aspects in interpretation)? What if such a work is not available? Is this professionalism?

Certainly for a historian of WWII Latin may be almost useless. But for a historian of Western Christianity Latin is a must (also Greek, and depending on the focus, some Old Slavonic, Aramaic and perhaps also other languages). Same for historians of Carolingian Europe, medieval Hungary, Renaissance (and these guys should have a clue about vernaculars such as French and Italian), of early modern scientific ideas, of transmission of musical theory from Antiquity to our modern times, etc. As I pointed out before, Latin is not merely the language of the Roman Empire and important segments of European history cannot be properly studied without an adequate knowledge of this language.

While my view on modern academia (I'm no scholar though) is much more optimistic than yours (I could write more on that, but already my reply is very long), one of the flaws I found often enough is the ignorance of evidence and somtimes of previous scholarship, which often enough is also caused by ignorance of languages. And Latin is one of these languages. I agree the Latin on university diplomas does not really matter that much, but this decision looks like a symptom of a more serious problem, too many historians don't know Latin (or other languages they should have known).
Drago?
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