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Gladiators: Back from the Dead
#31
Well, it was a great documentary. Nice to see my mate Kurt Hunter-Mann having a piece to camera, too! I liked the reconstructions, with the slo-mo camera work, and the British-ness, the rain and lack of glorious Italian weather. The kit looked great, and I was sure the tiger was blue screened in or something; you mean Dan actually sttod there and was charged by a bloody tiger? How much was he paid? Brave man! Big Grin D D
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#32
Watched it and it was, unfortunately, as I had expected not very impressive and to my mind a giving skewed extrapolations.

A few ;

Bestiarius; had a bite to the scapula. Explanation given that it is usual for Tigers etc to go for the shoulder to bring an animal down then deliver a killing bite to soft tissue (pointing towards stomach area). Surely they go straight to the neck to choke off. The Tigers tooth didn't look like it fitted to well into teh wound to me.

Equites; This guy had an injury to the knee, which was apparently unusual as it was so low, so it must have been inflicted whilst on horseback ergo an Equites! Any review of the battle of Wisby will testify to the number of lower limb wounds. Any bone expert purporting to know of sword type wounds should be aware of Wisby so should not make statements like that.

Thracian; Wasn't impressed that the sica was held point down as all illustrations I have seen show it the other way, which in fact makes opponent shield easier to get around as teh blade follows the contours of the arm.

Secutor; Said to be the most ferocious of the gladiators... because the was the pursuer. An opinion, sure, but based on what evidence? No mention that his helmet was designed to avoid trident blows and net entaglement... more pertinent than looking mean because of the two little eye holes.

Retiarius; 20 year veteran and was suckered into a daft attack on the shield, dissapointing fight coreography.

Myrmillo; had wounds to right arm at elbow. No manica then or they proved to be useless?

The types were accorded by body type, i.e. big muscular men Myrmillos and slighter blokes Thracians, which is arbitary really as in reality is a Myrmillo a Thracian or Secutor that differently armed weight wise? Smaller shields added two grieves and bigger ones at that so can they be called light compared with a myrmillo with his one small grieve but bigger shield?

All these guys appear to have been beheaded, which they admited was not evidenced elswhere ref gladiators so perhaps it was just a York thing for the local beheading mad Celts. Weak :| And then to say that the vertibrae evidenced eight blows, to get the head off, that's VIII blows in Roman and from highly trained athletes. I'm sorry but that is just plain crass!

The expert said that there are various depiction showing finishing by the sword, via the neck, front & back but also ones depicting the sword down the throat .... I have not seen this so if anyone can point me to it that would be great??

I really don't think they have graveyard full of gladiators, I think they are executed crininals.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#33
For what the documentary was I enjoyed it. Sure you pick holes in the hypothesis presented but I find the objections raised in the post above somewhat less convincing than those advanced in the documentary itself. If they were dead criminals why would they be afforded a decent burial with grave goods?

It is part and parcel of this genre of documentary to sensationalise the undoubtedly interesting finds. A totally dry academic forensic examination of the skeletons would make exceptionally dull TV. Personally I do think that to suggest we can convincingly identify individual gladatorial types in all instances with any certainty to be dubious but I would certainly lean towards the evidence pointing to at least some of the burials being Gladiators rather than simply writing the skeletons off as noxi.

Thought it was a decent effort which would give the average viewer a decent insight into the world of the Gladiator if nothing else. Entertaining TV, decent atmospheric reconstructions. Worth an hour of anyone but the harshest pedants time :roll: :wink:
Marc Byrne
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#34
I do remember Dan tellin' the stunt guy to rotate the sica but they wanted to have the cutting edge inside the curve! :roll: I think at that point he went off for a cuppa muttering to himself! :lol:

Dunno who provided the Roman soldiers & soldier's kit, we provided most of the gladiator kit, except the stuff stacked near the 'expert', dunno who provided that?

We had no input in the script whatsoever, for comments and conclusions you'd have to address the programme makers, we just got hired to provide some of the bodies and most of the kit.

Liked the overall effect though, nice to be part of, even though ridin' in that cart was bloody bumpy! :x
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#35
Quote:We had no input in the script whatsoever, for comments and conclusions you'd have to address the programme makers, we just got hired to provide some of the bodies and most of the kit.

I appreciate that, I'm not getting at you guys. I am aware that TV types have no real interest in accuracy but in making a programme with visual impact and that wow factor, which they did using what I call the Time Team Effect ... find a beer mug, date it to 450AD, say it could have been King Arthur's and you get the "wow" Big Grin

I'll have to give Terry Jones a call and ask him if he wants to do a Gladiator prog and see if I can get some input.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#36
Cheers Conal, appreciate that.

I think it was still good to be part of, if they hadn't used re-enactors they'd have hired the stuff from a costume hire company, and imagine the result if they did that!!!!

They were a nice crew and keen to get things right, they certainly asked our advice on kit but we had no control over the script or content and there seemed to be a lot of input from many different people.

I think the thing that gets us is (not so much with this documentary) is when they hire your people & stuff and then also mix it in with costume-hire stuff it can be infuriating!
We did a documentary about the end of Roman Britain about 10 years ago, most of our stuff looked ok, but the TV people hired some 15th Century kit, put some of the helmets on the main actors and mixed it all in on a day we weren't filming.
We weren't very happy about the broadcasted result!
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#37
The Mystery of the Headless Romans - take a look at York Archaeological Trust's website which shows some of the evidence for the skeletons discussed in the Gladiators: Back from the Dead Programme. And you get to cast your vote, saying what YOU think the skeletons may represent!:

http://www.headlessromans.com/
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#38
The programme appears to be on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_ ... wHM_PHVtas
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#39
Just saw it, and have to say that the "Archeologist" was more disturbing at what he was allowed to say then the gear and fight choreography.

As a Retiarius myself I wouldnt have gone with the very speculative greave and clingulum in his kit, and I cringe any time Gladiators are shown hacking at each others shields like medival swordsmen, instead of trying to stabbing around like they are supposed to, but at least the majority of Armarurae were described correctly, so I am satisfied with that.

I also liked how the early gladiators were depicted without visors, though the leather harness could have been left of and most viewers probably didnt get that these were supposed to be the forerunners of the later Gladiator styles (and these would not have fought in the Colloseum anyway)

Also saying that Bestiarii would have been untrained and had no chance against the wild animals is just as unfounded as associating high status auctorati with the Armatura of an Equites.
Sadly that shows again how difficult it is to work with TV people and still stay true to ones own scientific approach.
Olaf Küppers - Histotainment, Event und Promotion - Germany
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#40
Allowing for the needs of a modern TV/cable/satellite/DVR audience, I thought the documentary was a good blend of authentic history and entertainment. That they involved re-enactors at all was a very positive aspect to the programme.
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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#41
This has just gone on up on the BBC website - shows the evidence for various wounds on the skeletons from York:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10577082
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#42
Very interesting stuff!
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#43
after i received a copy of this tv show quite some time ago i finally had time to watch it yesterday taking some notes to the following points (some of them already mentioned by others here):

1) junkelmann defines the bestiarius as the animal keeper, the actual beast fighter would be named venator.hoewever, it is wrong to say that the beast fighter was untrained and therefore most likely condemned to death. although not as popular as gladiators they were also trained. in rome they had their own school, the ludus matutinus ("the morning school" as beast fights usually took place in the morning).

2) as was already pointed out by conal, i, too wondered when they referred to the alleged murmillo if he did wear a manica or if a sword could cut through it under certain circumstances. they did not say anything about it. then they said the blunt wound come from a scutum crashing down on the arm of the man lying on the floor. the movie scene showed a murmillo causing these injuries to a thraex, so why do they say it the other way around? in my opinion its very thin to conclude from injuries the exact gladiator type.

3) the alleged thraex died thruogh the hammer blow of the arena attendant dressed as charun. the roblem is that only noxii (condemned criminals) were killed like that. fallen gladiators were carried out on a stretcher from the arena and their throat was slit behind the scenes to make sure they are not feigning their death.

4) it didn't make sense to me that esp. secutores were recruited from slaves and had to wear foot shackle even when fighting in the arena.

5) thinking that young man from the equestrian order (called equites) signing up as gladiators fighting on horseback (also called equites) seems very far-stretched. it was disgraceful esp. for members of the senatorial and equestrian class to appear publicly as gladiators, they would lose all their rights to run for office etc. the movie scene showed on gladiator already dismounted while the other one still sat on horseback. presumably the equites started their fight on horseback and then both dismounted to continue fighting on foot.

6) imho all gladiators need their right and left arms more or less equally, also the retiarius who switches the trident from left to right after the net is thrown, so that a young net fighter has one longer arm is also far-stretched. also gladiators were killed honorably this means they would never be beheaded.

after watching this documentary i see my previously stated doubts confirmed. saying that they found graves of gladiators is more attractive to the media than roman mass graves of criminals were found.

ps: sorry for my constant use of small letters, had a bicycle accident and one arm in a cast.
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#44
The archaeological context of these burials was not extensively explored in the programme, and it might be worth checking out the following York Archaeological Trust websites:

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/headle ... /index.htm -

http://www.iadb.co.uk/driffield6/index.php - Romans lose their heads: an unusual cemetery at The Mount, York
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#45
For viewers outside the UK, the complete documentary can be seen in three parts, starting at:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdssxt ... shortfilms
Lindsay Powell
[url:1j6646pm]http://www.Lindsay-Powell.com[/url] website
@Lindsay_Powell twitter
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