06-25-2010, 05:46 AM
Sorry, I should have elaborated further. This is the single literary source for Thracians/Triballi using 'spears' called 'sarissa' around Philip's time which leads to the assumption that these 'sarissa' were the Macedonian 'sarissa' (16-18 ft long) of Philip and Alexander. As I pointed out, if 'sarissa' is a word for 'long spear' as seems likely, we cannot know what length this Thracian 'sarissa' was, or whether it was a precursor of the Macedonian 'sarissa' that too many quickly assume was derived from the Thracian example referred to here....(There is another much later literary reference in Lucian, not relevant here, to a Median cavalryman being spitted by a Thracian 'sarissa' - through his horses belly !)
As Fred has pointed out, identification of weapons on iconography is problematic, not least because lengths are often altered to fit the medium. Often too, weapons are mis-identified, for example 'short' dual-purpose spears/longche are often mis-identified as either javelins (pure missile weapons and smaller) or spear/dory (larger, intended for hand-to-hand fighting), which as Fred has pointed out, Best seems to have done.
The 'Mossynoeci' in Xenophon are not Thracians proper, but rather an Anatolian Black Sea people. Xenophon describes their armament in detail:
"They all had shields/pelta made of the skins of white oxen and with the hair still on, shaped like an ivy leaf; and in the right hand they carried a spear(longche !) about 9 ft long, with a spearhead at one end and a round knob made out of the wood of the shaft at the other. They wore short tunics, which did not reach the knee, and which were about as thick as a linen clothes-bag. On their heads they wore leather helmets of Paphlagonian type, with tufts of hair in the middle so as to produce the effect of a tiara. They also carried iron battle-axes/sagaris."
The "nine foot longche" here is clearly larger than the 8 foot or so dory. (Being longer than a dory, hence a "long spear" it might well have been called 'sarissa' in Macedonian or Thracian).The "hairy peltai" are of interest too, as well as leather helmets with central vertical plume falling over tiara-like (uncommon in this era).
Like Fred, I don't think Thracian spearmen fought as a Greek phalanx - there would likely never be enough of them, nor would they have the 'drill skills' necessary, which isn't to say they couldn't fight in tribal 'close order' as needed.Perhaps they 'mixed in' with groups of peltasts to provide protection against cavalry - the only significant threat they couldn't outrun, or perhaps certain tribes were 'spearmen' just as the 'Dii' tribe were rare in being swordsmen.
As Fred has pointed out, identification of weapons on iconography is problematic, not least because lengths are often altered to fit the medium. Often too, weapons are mis-identified, for example 'short' dual-purpose spears/longche are often mis-identified as either javelins (pure missile weapons and smaller) or spear/dory (larger, intended for hand-to-hand fighting), which as Fred has pointed out, Best seems to have done.
The 'Mossynoeci' in Xenophon are not Thracians proper, but rather an Anatolian Black Sea people. Xenophon describes their armament in detail:
"They all had shields/pelta made of the skins of white oxen and with the hair still on, shaped like an ivy leaf; and in the right hand they carried a spear(longche !) about 9 ft long, with a spearhead at one end and a round knob made out of the wood of the shaft at the other. They wore short tunics, which did not reach the knee, and which were about as thick as a linen clothes-bag. On their heads they wore leather helmets of Paphlagonian type, with tufts of hair in the middle so as to produce the effect of a tiara. They also carried iron battle-axes/sagaris."
The "nine foot longche" here is clearly larger than the 8 foot or so dory. (Being longer than a dory, hence a "long spear" it might well have been called 'sarissa' in Macedonian or Thracian).The "hairy peltai" are of interest too, as well as leather helmets with central vertical plume falling over tiara-like (uncommon in this era).
Like Fred, I don't think Thracian spearmen fought as a Greek phalanx - there would likely never be enough of them, nor would they have the 'drill skills' necessary, which isn't to say they couldn't fight in tribal 'close order' as needed.Perhaps they 'mixed in' with groups of peltasts to provide protection against cavalry - the only significant threat they couldn't outrun, or perhaps certain tribes were 'spearmen' just as the 'Dii' tribe were rare in being swordsmen.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
