Pugio frog help (picture identity and period)

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

I'm right with the mulfuncional theory on the use for these pieces.

I use it for my cavalry harness, and works fine. Those are some Beltandloop fasteners used for hang pendants:

[Astiryu1]

Nice! The horse needs to have gear too!!!
I mean they need to be able to compare armor and such just as much as we do.

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs.

Where you would thank Mike for his wise input shall I take it that after all of this discussion you have no problems with his statements regarding the Camomile Street Soldier.

As I pointed out in my publication many years ago the two disks could be button-and-loop fasteners. They would arguably make more sense than brooches.
Are we to envisage four brooches just to fasten a cape?

The disks sit between the two hems depicted on the material so could easily represent a B&L fastened to the back of the cape and slipped through loops sewn to the other half, so no brooches needed.

Therefore as I said earlier I think the sensible thing is that you and I just agree to disagree.

[Crispvs]

Brian,

If you have a look back over my posts you will see that I have always accepted the possibility that they *might* be button/loops. I just don't agree that it is a cut and dried thing. Yes, if other evidence came to light, then the Camomile Street soldier would be the ideal visual support for it. I would just like to see some other evidence that's all. As we can't know what would have been on the backs of the disks, all we have are plausible theories. Why don't we agree then that button/loops are a good guess for this sculpture but we have nothing to independently prove it and that other possibilities do exist. I don't think that would be unreasonable, do you?

Crispvs

[PhilusEstilius]

Crispvs.

In one of your posts you have said, There is also nothing on the sculpture to demonstrate what the back of each disc would have looked like, so there is no way to show that what was on the backs was anything other than a pin of some sort, which is what seems most likely given their position.

Then another comment was, the two discs depicted overlap both sides of the cloak's front split, making them more likely to be brooches.
It would appear that Mike Bishop has put forward almost the same points that I have, however you prefer not to put these type of comments towards his point of view, In fact you even give compliment to his contribution.

[Crispvs]

This is true and is what Tarbicus was saying on the other thread.

However, I have also said several times that I fully accept the possibility that they might be button/loops, but that we cannot prove it. You are pushing at an open door. The only difference in real terms between what you are saying and what I am saying is that you say that they *are* button/loops and I am saying they might be.

Crispvs

[Caballo]

I don't want to cause any further disagreement (especially between friends) , and agree that they could be brooches or button fasteners.

The Camomile soldier lives about five minutes from where I'm typing, and endless scrutiny from me has failed utterly to establish whether its a brooch or button fastener.

This (below) is the paenula I put together to experiment. Before putting on button fasteners, I sewed it up to the neck. It now has horizontal leather (trying to minic the Camomile chap) and button and loop fasteners made by Nodge Nolan.

I've got to say that I'm not sure of any benefit here from button and loop as opposed to simply a sewn up join, but that could just be me. Still, its a very warm paenula and kept me very warm when I slept in it on Hadrian's Wall last September on teh Comitatus Wall walk. In fact , somewhere on RAT are pics of me asleep by the fire. Luckily, the RAT technology cannot replicate the sound effects of my snoring....

[PhilusEstilius]

Paul.

I am trying to work out what you mean by horizontal leather and button loop fasteners, and then also why you have sewn this garment up to the neck for that does not go with what the Camomile Street Soldier is wearing.

For his garment would appear to be an open one that is held by what may be two button loop fasteners, where the fixing loops of these are stitched to one edge of the garment and the studs going thro' a loop in the other side of the material.
What I'm trying to point out is that with a button loop fastener there is no need for any leather at all, the metal under ring or triangle goes direct onto the garment material by stitching.

The varied collection I have of these type of fasteners shows no wear from any such leathers ever being on them, and if one looks at the selection that Adrian Wink has shown of many others found these also show no wear on the triangles or rings that survive. ( I think it possible evidence these things have been stitched to material )
Indeed the type of cape the Camomile Sreet Soldier is wearing can be seen on other soldiers at times with the cape thrown back over the shoulder in some cases.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thanks Mike for the wise input.

Thanks also Tim for the images. It is easy to see how some of these could have accommodated a strap or straps.

Byron,

"If you can show me re4liefs and sculpture which shows the back of the strap going over the belt, then I will accept your point as valid,
but not before. "

I don't really want to drag this further into an OT area but you must realise you are effectively asking the impossible. However, when reading over my short article you seem to have missed these two sculptures, which do seem to point to soldiers not feeling the need to use their belts to secure their bladrics. :wink:

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... temid,135/

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... opeXIV.jpg

Crispvs

First of all my apologies for taking so long to respond. My last attempt timed out and I was away from a computer for some time.
What I see Crispus is two stele/reliefs of soldiers? (without military belts) with baldrics under their left arms. One of them holding a sling? Perhaps these chaps are auxillary?
I would certainly agree that this is feasable on that side, where your scutum arm is free to grip the scabbard as well,
but not too convinced on the feasibility of an unsecure scabbard on the right side, as in the legionary draw.
I too have made some practical experiments on this and find it undesireable.
I am not doggedly sticking to one piece of evidence as to buttons Crispus, but as you now agree, the possibility is there that
these items are of multi-purpose use.
The absence of belts on these soldiers makes me wonder why they are absent, rather than why they do not need a belt.
Perhaps a sign of hurried engagement rather than standard practice?

[Crispvs]

Well (and sorry to continue with the OT bit), I have been wearing my scabbard unbelted on the right for three and a half years now. I do not find any serious problems with this. Since I shortened the baldric, have you ever seen me having difficulty keeping my sword in its scabbard or having difficulty drawing it?
I can, however, imagine some of the difficulties which could be caused if the scabbard somehow became hooked onto the shield.

On the front of the two sculptures, no-one knows why they are not wearing belts. On the evidence of the shield, the Mainz figure is generally identified as a legionary and the Adamklissi figures are generally identified as auxiliaries.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I imagine in the Mainz case, the scabbard probably interferes with the use of the sling in the same way as trying to use a plumbata with a right hand scabbard.

[Crispvs]

Well (and we still seem to be OT here), the loop in his hand *could* be a sling, although I don't find the identification very convincing myself, but really we don't what it is supposed to be. He is often stated to be leading tethered prisoners, with the loop in his hand presumably then being the lead to which the prisoners are tethered. I have never found this very convincing though, as the two tethered prisoners are on a different column base and appear to my eyes to have been sculpted by a different artist. Thus I don't see the connection between the two stones, aside from having once performed the same function in the same building. So the loop remains a mystery. True, it could be a sling, but there are other things it could be as well. It might even be the missing belt, although why he would be holding it rather than wearing it is anyone's guess. If his shield blazon has been correctly identified as that of Legio XIIII, then it would not be connected with Vitellius, as the XIIII was not in Mainz at that time.

As to having difficulty throwing plumbatae with your sword slung on the right, I have done this a number of times and have found no problem. Perhaps the trouble comes from securing your sword with your belt. :twisted: :wink:

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well (and we still seem to be OT here), the loop in his hand *could* be a sling, although I don't find the identification very convincing myself, but really we don't what it is supposed to be. He is often stated to be leading tethered prisoners, with the loop in his hand presumably then being the lead to which the prisoners are tethered. I have never found this very convincing though, as the two tethered prisoners are on a different column base and appear to my eyes to have been sculpted by a different artist. Thus I don't see the connection between the two stones, aside from having once performed the same function in the same building. So the loop remains a mystery. True, it could be a sling, but there are other things it could be as well. It might even be the missing belt, although why he would be holding it rather than wearing it is anyone's guess. If his shield blazon has been correctly identified as that of Legio XIIII, then it would not be connected with Vitellius, as the XIIII was not in Mainz at that time.

As to having difficulty throwing plumbatae with your sword slung on the right, I have done this a number of times and have found no problem. Perhaps the trouble comes from securing your sword with your belt. :twisted: :wink:

Crispvs

Did they use plumbata in the period when they wore the sword on the right?
I can crack a nut with a nut cracker and not break the nut, but some people insist it can only be done with a knife.....
What ever it is, there is a reason for it, and a sling sounds reasonable.
Like you say, a belt is questionable, and if as you say the prisoner theory is dodgy, I would go with a sling idea.
Also it was an ex military guy who had problems with the sword/plumbata issue, so it wouldn't be my sword on the belt.
I didn't deign to go out of period...... :wink:

[Crispvs]

I have only thrown plumbatae properly when the public were not around, hence the use when the sword was on the right. Ironically, when in my late Roman kit in the multi-period display I never actually throw plumbatae, although I do carry them as part of the kit and do show them to the public.

Crispvs

[Peroni]

I have only thrown plumbatae properly when the public were not around

Good thing too judging by your javelin throwing skills Matey! :wink: