Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Reconstructed Persian weapons
#31
Stephen,
Agree with you on arrows.

Question on cloth: only wool what about linen and perhaps cotton from India at least for aristocratic elites?

Agree also that royal escort was mainly cavalry but t no royal or imperial guard seems to have been without infantry through time.
"immortals" might be the Greek interpretation but I leave that open.

Kind regards
Reply
#32
Stephan,

Your folks are looking good. Could I ask what material Marco's (I assume the second one is Marco) tunic is made of? And also the takas -- wicker, wood? I would love to do a takabara impression by the time the second invasion anniversaries roll around.

Stephen,

Regarding hose, I don't really find it easy to tell. The legs always seem to be met by ankle-high boots... I don't suppose there's ever been a physical find?
Dan D'Silva

Far beyond the rising sun
I ride the winds of fate
Prepared to go where my heart belongs,
Back to the past again.

--  Gamma Ray

Well, I'm tough, rough, ready and I'm able
To pick myself up from under this table...

--  Thin Lizzy

Join the Horde! - http://xerxesmillion.blogspot.com/
Reply
#33
Linen, cotton and silk were certainly available and used by higher levels of society, but up until the early 20th century clothing was still made from woollen cloth.

Hose are clearly depicted as being given as tribute by Saka and Mede delegations.
The fragments of Glazed bricks at Susa show the leg wear extending onto the foot.

As for the 'Immortals', yes it is possible that they fought on foot some times. They could easily dismount if the terrain was not suitable.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
Reply
#34
Stephen, that is fantastic that you have been to Iran. First and foremost, let me say that as a Persian I am very honored that people in this time and politics even show the time and interest let alone respect towards my ancestors. So I thank you very much for that.

With regards to a few points that you are making.

Let me start this by giving you a bit of a background on me with regards to Persian Military Knowledge. I am a Zoroastrian Persian, I was born in Iran and live in the US. I have visited Iran many times and everytime has included indepth research in Persian Military History. With Specific focus on the Achaemenid and Sassanid Empires, but ofcourse can not avoid the Parthian era as well. I studied Persian Military warfare and equipment for over 25 years, with detailed focus on a scholarly level for over 18 years of that. I have seen first hand things that I did not know even existed today and are not open to the public for view. I can not disclose how. Furthermore, with regards to reconstructions today. I do not believe you can make an accurate representation of a Persian Achaemenid or Sassanid Immortal or Companion as I am sure none of us have the wealth to reproduce it properly. I have seen photos and artifacts from military buriels that are not available for view here. Such as female cavalry heavy armored contingents. It is not beneficial for the current state of the political atmosphere to show female warriors. I will stop on that subject now and can not and will not go on about that anymore. I have been to Persepolis as well and also visited with many of the tribal regions that s till utilize the same basic styles and techniques that were used in even Pre-Achaemenid eras. I have seen fragments of Swords, Scabbards and Arrows and Scales that are beyond words impressive.

Now having said that, lets discuss the attire. I have extensively researched Achaemenid and Mede attire and there is absolutely no evidence of them wearing hoes. That I will disagree with you. The simple representation of pants stopping at the base of shoes is simply an artistic representation. There is no evidence of it in any other cultural historical examples of it anywhere in Iran. Not with any of the tribal customs and clothing nor in any other segment of historical, archeological or artistic basis. If for example you look at the famous relief of Darius, then you would have to assume that either he was only wearing socks or he had no toes, there are no representations of any stitching, shoe laces, banding or any other detail that would represent anything other than a smooth representation of his foot. We can not assume that his footwear was a sock material. We see details of strapping and lacing material on Mede and Achaemenid shoes all over Persepolis and in great detail. But we do not see it on the king. We do know that the Persian took great pride in their clothing and in particular their shoes, it was a point of boast and arrogance for them. Often it is said that in combat, they put one foot forward to display their shoes, the quality and detail in their shoes as a sign of supremacy.

With regards to Mede vs Persian and their clothing and customs. In the west we refer the the Persian world as a segmented into Medes, Persians, Parthians, etc. In Iran we take it one step further, the Persians were broken into clans as well, Achaemenes being one of the clans. In Iran we refer to all of these as Iranians or in our proper old terminology, Aryanam or Aryachissa. Aryan Lineage. So they are to be viewed as more of lets say Scottish Clans than separate and different peoples, but rather separate clans. The differences in their clothing, Persian Robe verses Mede trousers is more similar than disimilar. For example, there is an obvious difference between a Robe and a Shirt and Pants. But what we know is that same values and virtues were apparent in their level of detail and construction and materials. We know that Persian fabric was some of the most expensive Fabric in the Ancient world. In Particular Persian colored fabrics. Persian Red, Persian Blue, Persian Yellow and Persian Red and finally Persian Purple being the most expensive fabric of them all. We know that this fabric was so expensive that when Alexander looted the Treasury at Persepolis he paid many of his troops in Fabric. We also know that the Immortals were dressed in the most expensive of the fabrics and color coded to regimental ranks or it is now guessed as regimental ranks. We will discuss the existence of the Immortals later. With regards to their armor, we see scale coats and shirts worn and stated by Herodotus and Xenophen as being worn under their garments, but we also see Linothorax armor worn by the Persians as well. We know that a large Greek population live in Persia Proper, in the proper region of Parsa. These Greeks were artisans and masons and were among those who helped build Persepolis. We also know that Greek Mercenaries served in the Persian Militaries. Therefore the representation of Greek armor and Greek weaponry is absolutely justified within the Persian Empire. That is the same concept as today when you see lets say an AK-47 and F-14 Tomcat in today's Iranian Military. So we know that there was a trade of weaponry and military technology and it was much more wide spread than popularly believed. We have a concept of a homogenius military machine today. Everyone wearing exact uniforms, using exact same equipment. This was very rare in the ancient world and even in the Roman and Persian Militaries which were highly standardized, even with them very rare. That is why we have references from sources mentioning that even when Persian fought Persian, the Satraps or those challenging the crown distributed colored tunics so that they could distinquish their troops from enemy troops.

With respect to the fabrics that are used. Yes fine wool was the common fabric of the day and still is amongst the tribal people, but their ceremonial outfits and the traditional outfits are often made of silk, which was a very common and prominent fabric in the Persian empire. There are examples of both wool and silk fabrics and combination of the two that still survive in Iran. Silk being more expensive and the dies needed to make the above mentioned Persian colors further leads to the understanding that if the Persians used fabric as a symbol of status and were equipped with the best and that Alexander used them as pay and we see the flow and fold of some of the robes which would be very difficult to do in wool as neatly as seen on some of the carvings then these fabrics would have been made of the finest which would have been silk. Furthermore this is clearly evident in the later Sassanid Periods. Finally in Asiatic archery cultures silk was a very valuable commodity as arrows have a very difficult time if at all able to pierce silk when not taught. The arrow wraps the silk and takes it into the wound which is then cleanly withdrawn. This is very important. This is heavily encorporated by all Asiatic archery powers including the Persians. Wool deposited into a wound is fatal, almost always fatal if hit with any level of depth. Silk seals the wound if left in and when drawn the arrow does no damage. So we can heavily rest assured that the best were supplied with the finest fabrics and silks with wool being secondary.

With respect to their armor and a few questions about armor tests we did. The linothorax is constructed of heavy heavy layers of Cotton and Wool Fabric glued together. Arrows can not, let me be clear about this, can not pierce them if they are volley shots. If shot directly, maybe certain arrows can. But I was not able to pierce a badly made linothorax with an armor piercing tip. I was not. I was able to pierce the bronze armor with the same arrowhead. The arrowhead was destroyed in doing it though. I have seen the arrowheads and I have seen many many hundreds of them and there were more arrowhead designs than there were soldiers. So it is hard to say which and what type of arrowheads each campaign is referring to. Also, all the arrows that we shot in the tests were made of Reed. Reed and Bamboo. They are actually much stronger than typical cedar style arrows. They are natures carbon fiber. Again, remember, I did not pick up a bow and shoot. I shoot roughly 50 arrows a day on a bad day, a super bad day. Average about 200 arrows a day. Missing maybe one or two days a week and only when I am on holiday. So I shoot thousands of arrows a month as my own personal zen moment and relaxation. I have shot bows for nearly 30 years. With respect to felt, that is open to debate, we are not sure to what degree felt was used. For in Iran, wool felt even today is made very crude and for a reason. It is used in almost all things that are padding. It is some of the best wool felt I have seen, but it is different that what I have seen elsewhere. The wool felt is either hard to make hats out of, much like the Ghasghai tribes wear or it is a fine soft wool, but then it looks more like fabric than felt. Whether they wore a helmet under it or not, it is very very debateable and even in Iran they are looking for that possibility. Remember, when we have references from Herodotus regarding the soft hat, he is stating it on what was visible and not even to him. We know that in Sassanian Periods the Romans commented on confronting Persians that were glittering in metal, that only their eyes were visible, yet we have other instances that we see references to them wearing clothing over the armor and their helmets. This can be attributed to two main possibilities, heraldry for domestic combat and heat protection. Most often heat protection. We know that the Immortals are widely stated as wearing their armor under their shirts or coats which is assumed for the same reason, especially during the dates of the first and second Persian wars. We know that the Spartans and other Greeks did the same with their cloaks and the cloaks were removed when ready for combat. But mostly worn for heat protection. This is excluded when using a linothorax, especially those painted white which reflect the heat. That is why so many were painted white. Now this is where it gets very interesting and this is something that was brought to my attention in the last 5 years and the only source I have for it are two that I can not confirm. One was a Phd that I met at a conference that had nothing to do with anything historical, but he had specialty in ancient agriculture and in specifid commerce relating to agriculture and then later two people that I spoke to in Iran regarding arms and armor and they both conquered on this. The concept of the Linothorax. The linothorax was a relatively easy armor to make and not too expensive at all. The reason whey we dont have example of them either other than metal really is that they decay fast. They were functional. Therefore, very easy for them to be made and by all means should be very common. Why was it not so common. If in many cases even more effective than bronze and cheaper, than why not more readily available. Here is the reason, in the numbers spoken and in the quantities required, the agricultural and also animal husbandry worlds, it would have been impossible to produce the vast quantities of fabrics needed to produce this. This is a huge point of discussion. You have to remember, fabrics were still expensive and the materials needed not as readily available as we think. Therefore, this has brought many to believe that many of those armors were made of linen and leather layers or hardened leather bases. This is why we see so much leather and metal armor even in later dates. So it is and should be up to debate whether much of the armor that we see was made of leather, linen and various metals. Ofcourse for reasons of status elites would have had the best of the best for numbers of reason. Ornate, best materials and also symbols and motifs denoting rank and loyalties as well.

With respect to the Immortals. This is a debatable title. Companions, Immortals, Javdans, Apple Bearers, whatever. We do know that the Greeks refer to them as Immortals, we do know that the Persians refer to them as the Elite Guards given the rank and status that is present at Persepolis. Even if we dont have any of those guesses, we do have one other area that is very rarely referred to. That is the main area of struggle between the Parthians and the Sassanids. The sassanids did a lot to erase much of the Parthian legacy. The reasons for this are often attributed to the Sassanid quest for the resurrection of the Achaemenid Persian Cultural heritage that they felt was the true and pure roots of their Persian beliefs. We know that when Ardeshir sent messages to the Romans that he was demanding the lands and empire of his ancestors and he was referring to the Achaemenids, and we know that he strived to model himself in the light of Cyrus the Great. If you read his Karnamak you see that even though not explicit it is implicit and prevalent. With regards to this he established a 10,000 elite military core, mainly cavalry though. Furthermore they were made of pure and aristocratic or hardcore warriors earning those ranks that would be gifted that title. And he deployed them in the same manners outside of warfare as did the achaemenids. They are referred to as Sassanid Immortals. And what is more important is the literary traditions that have survived the almost death of the Persian language in the hands of the Arabs. The references to the immortals that protect Persia has been in our culture even during the time of the Safavids. So we know that this elite core existed, it has been resurrected time and time again throughout our history and in the same base form, even though it has gone from infantry to cavalry cataphracts to medium cavalry in later periods. Now what they are called, immortals, companions, that is open to debate. But does that really matter. We know that they existed. Now in the Achaemenid times whether they were cavalry or infantry, I have debates on that myself. We know that they were 10,000 in number. We also know that 1000 of them were elite gold bearers as opposed to the 9000 that were silver bearers. Even here I have a debate because of I have seen evidence to say that there were 10,000 silver bearers and an additional 1,000 gold bearers that were elite core outside of the 10,000. This makes no mention of Persian Cavalry. We know that Cyrus died on horseback and we know that cavalry contingents prior to Darius and Xerxes were a large part of the Persian army and becoming even a more integral part. We know that the Persian Cavalry, not auxiliary, but Persian cavalry abandoned the field during battles with Alexander when Greek Mercenaries and Auxiliary troops were defeated and they abandoned the field. Therefore, we know that this must have been a position of extreme rank and status. We also know that the Immortal Infantry also took to combat with them, their families and Grooms or Aides. What is amazing is that we have references even in Parthian and Sassanid periods, that the Achaemenid Cavalry had two grooms per horsemen. Therefore, how does this fit in to the scheme of things. We know that many of the records of such thins that were not on clay tablets were destroyed in the fires. We also know that Phillip built the importance of the Companion Cavalry on the Persian Model. Not their armor, not their tactics, but the Importance of them. We also know what the make up of that would be. So it would be safe to say that the Persians followed probably this same model. Thus, we may look at the Persian Immortals as a fighting Praetorian Guard, the Cavalry as an Equites Class and the Persian citizen levies as the Legions.

With regards to the Dress that I made. It is made of leather construction and stylized. A more accurate representation would have had scales on the sides as well. And virtually all of it would have been gold plated and silver plated. The Linothorax is not Anatolian or Greek or Persian, it is a base model of a linothorax as commonly used, pinned at the shoulders. The tunic is the tunic pattern of a Median tunic that was adopted by the Persians, the trousers are white cotton trousers in the generic pattern that you see in the wall carvings of persepolis, the shoes are generic stitched shoes, the sword is kopis style the Persians are depicted using, the Greek shield is the greek shield that is depicted being used. Whether it is native or not is again debatable, as it was used. With regards to wood or wicker shields. This is something that I am very sensative about and an entire book can be written about this. Most people do not understand the uses of weopanry, but rather see it and assume its uses. When the references to these shields are made, the placement and more importantly the functionality of them are often ignored. Wicker is a tough tough tough material to make shields out of and very light. But it was not used in the way many think. Auxiliary if they had shield were using wicker round or crescent shields or using the shield wall. The large square shield. That large square shield that is soooo often shown is not used in the same manner that the Roman Scutum was used. It was a protective shield wall, massed by weighted infantry to protect the archers and base for attacks. It was not a shield that can be carried into combat. It was not made for that. The shields that were wicker that were the crescent or round shields are not shield made to stop the piercing power of a spear or sword, but rather used in a manner that swipes and deflects. Finally when you see the famous violin shields of the Immortals or the round shields on the Alexander Sarcophogus, it is clear that they are domed shields made of other bronze or wood core with bronze and or leather face. We clearly see the violin shield on persepolis with boss and rims and smooth surface on the shield, either made of wood or wood covered in leather. We see the Persians in contact and conflict with worlds using the Boetion style shields and it is very safe and extremely prudent to assume the same style development. You have to remember, this was the largest empire the world had seen and it employed very successfully the best of those worlds. It is absolutely absurd to assume that experiencing these other cultures and their weapons developments that the persians would not have adopted them. We know they brought it Eqytpian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Greek artisans and Masons along with their own to build Persepolis. It is absolutely impossible and absurd to believe that they would not have done this with respect to their military equipment. Therefore, I would put forth that Much like the Militaries of today, exluding aircraft and naval and missle technologies, but infantry, you will see more similarities than differences. Also much like the European Knights, when on crusade, they began to adopt quite a bit of Saracen armor, weaponry and technology. As did the Saracens having to learn and adopt European style armors and technologies as well.

With regards to a Persian arrow piercing bronze armor. Be as dubious as you like about it, not only do we have statements of them Piercing Roman Armor and Shields, they did Pierce Greek Bronze armor and Shields. I have shot right through it. Remember this was using a 60lb bow and we know from most experienced archers that a minimum weight for a war bow is about 75lbs with many accounts of actual warbows being in the range of 90 to 125 pounds. I can tell you that volley shots I am doubtful will pierce, but direct shots, I have pierced with no problem. Furthermore, we pierced 18 guage hand hammered bronze. The armor I have seen, Greek armor is not as thick as 18 guage, it seemed to me to be about 20 guage. If the armor is effective curved muscle cuirass, then yes I would agree that most often ricochet, but a direct hit to a flat spot, no problem. If it is a metal flat based linothorax, very very very vulnerable to piercing. And also with regards to archers. Remember, there is a reason for the continued growth and advancement of archers in combat until the arrival of accurate firearm. We know that even in periods that firearms were available, archers were still in effective and mass use. This is evident in the Mughal and Persian invasions of India and also Japanese campaigns as well. I have seen many people credit armor as a tank and it is just not the case gentlemen. It is extremely important, but remember French Knights in the Height of Chivalry were cut down by Archers in Agincourt. And this is much later with much more advanced armor.

Stephen, please let me say this and be clear as typed messages have no tone. Everything that I say I say with the Highest respect and gratitude. I take a huge huge honor in that you have so respectfully shown such an interest in Persians. I know that often when people write things can be taken out of context or with a tone of disrespect and I do not want this to come across that way. In fact quite the opposite. I value your input and I think these kinds of discussions are what have caused great things to come about, such as so much of the wonderful information that we have about the Greeks, Romans, Japanese, etc. I hope you take what I have written as a healthy debate and one that I am very glad actually exists. If it was not for people like you and others on this message boards, we Persians would be continued to be shown as ugly ballarinas that like to jump up into the air and die on Greek Spears. Furthermore, to all of the Greek enthusiasts, I have to sometimes make this Clear, Greeks, Greek Culture, Greek History, Greek People and Greek Mythology is a huge piece of my make up. I grew up on it, love it, respect it and consider myself a brother to a Greek. I have always viewed the Greek and Persian Wars as they should be, two powerful and advanced peoples that had a Conflict. And when others chime in about it, I sometimes in a funny way feel this, hey if I fight with my brother, he is still my brother, mind your own business. hahahahaha

Finally Phoekean - you are absolutely right, we are now putting a much greater amount of focus and bringing to light the importance of the Sassanian Infantry as well. It is so often just left aside, yet we know that there was a heavy contingent of Archers, Heavy armored infantry, light infantry, and the Cavalry was broken up much the same as well, light, auxiliary, heavy, cataphract, Fadayan and Elit Savaran and even more it seems.

Wow, my fingers are tired.

Ardeshir Radpour
www.radpour.com
Ardeshir Radpour
Reply
#35
Hello Ardeshir,

First of all, thank you for the informative post. I have the following points to make.. I wont respond to every point as it would go on forever Big Grin As with you, no hostility is implied!

Quote:I have extensively researched Achaemenid and Mede attire and there is absolutely no evidence of them wearing hoes
What would you call these?
[Image: tributebearers.jpg]
These are worn by all of the nations that wear Mede style dress. Trousers are only worn by the Skythians. These are clearly hose extening all the way to the foot like a sock. This is a also worn by pre-Mede peoples such as the Uratians and Assyrians.

The violin style shield is probably derived from the Hittite design rather than the Boeotian. Interestingly the cut aways are off centre.
The T&Y corslet is most likely Greek. Herodotus states that the Persians wore the Egyptian cuirass, which would be the same as the Assyrian model.

I understand very well how weapons and armour are used, And I understand the practicality of each. Wicker shields were also used by the Assyrians before the Persians.

I would love to talk to you further about the things you have seen over the years. I am trying to correct a lot of the misconceptions about the Persian army through my miniature company. Anything that can be positively dated and properly documented to the Achaemenid period interests me greatly.
If you are interested in talking further please send me a PM and I will give you my personally email address.

Iran is an amazing country. I dont pay any attention to the news, I prefer to see things for myself. I intend to go back next year to the Kurdish area.

Regards
Steve
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
Reply
#36
Steve, wonderful. You can email me at [email protected] I would be more than happy to speak with you. Regarding those, yes, those are hoes but there is not reference to those being used by Medes or Persian that I have seen. Not in any area that I have seen. If there is, I would be interested in seeing that. I have seen this before, and those are gifts being presented to the court. In essence it is easy to say that they were used and I will capitulate to that, and it would make sense that they were. But I have not seen anything referring to their use by the Persians or Medes. As far as your minatures, they are fantastic. I saw them and I think you have done an amazing job with them. Steve, where are you located? I am in the Los Angeles area.

Ardeshir Radpour
Ardeshir Radpour
Reply
#37
The bearers are Saka from Iran and Medes. Both are wearing the hose as well as bearing them as tribute. There is a long tradition of this kind of leg wear in the Kurdish area and the Alborz mountains. All Iranians at persepolis are wearing these hose, but other nationalities are obviously wearing trousers. Some figures are shoeless and are quite clearly wearing these also.
last of all the fragments from Susa show the leggins going into the shoe quite clearly.
[Image: img140.jpg]
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
Reply
#38
Wow Steve, I have never seen those, I am definitely looking into that more. That is awesome. Thank you.

Ardeshir
Ardeshir Radpour
Reply
#39
I think it\\s pretty clear in the Alexander Sarcophagus that the trousers go inside the shoe. Have a close look in those photos:
http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/eastwing&page=all
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
#40
Quote:Your folks are looking good. Could I ask what material Marco's (I assume the second one is Marco) tunic is made of? And also the takas -- wicker, wood? I would love to do a takabara impression by the time the second invasion anniversaries roll around.

Thanks, so the army of the King of Kings is growing. :mrgreen:
Marco made his sarapis out of a piece silk he got from Iran and which has this fantastic "Spitzgratmuster"(sorry, don't know how it's called in english, the Zick-Zack-pattern). He had not enough to make it as long as it was planned but I think he may sew a othercoulored stripe at the lower hem. The takas/pelta are made of plywood, canvas and rawhide. But in fall we may get reed from friends in croatia which is thick enough to rebuild them as "Stabschilde", built like the duraeuropos and the 3 scythian/saka-findings and the sparrabarradepictions in attic vasepaintings or the pelte of the Solocha-comb.


Quote:I think it\\s pretty clear in the Alexander Sarcophagus that the trousers go inside the shoe.

Also you can see this practice at the thracian Kazanluk-wallpaintings, at several scythian depictions where scythians wear tight anaxyrides (what is mostly the case) and also at celtic depictions like the Hallstattscabbard for example.


lg Stephan
Stephan Eitler
WAR CHUNNI ( http://www.awaren.net )
et
ERGASTERION BOSPOROU ( https://www.facebook.com/GensDanubiusEtP...us?fref=ts )
et
HETAIROI ( www.hetairoi.de )
Reply
#41
They are not trousers in the sense we would know them.
The problem with the 'Alexander sarcophagus' is that it was clearly made by a Greek sculptor. The fabrics worn by the 'Persians' are very thin and reflect Greek styles rather than Iranian ones.
You can see here the hoes or socks worn by the Assyrians. the paintings at Til Barsip show the decoration to be almost identical to the first colour foot I posted from Susa.

[Image: assyrian.jpg]
Also, here is a long stocking (80cm) found in the Pazyryk tomb. This was found alongside many items Iranian manufacture.

[Image: NTEVNBTZOOAQGN9W6.jpg]

This looks very much like the leggings being bought as tribute by the Medes and Sakas.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Iranians and a lot of Anatolians wore hoes or long socks and not trousers.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
Reply
#42
Stephen, I just got back from a trip and I had to log on to write you this. I not only stand corrected, but more importantly absolutely have the in hand item to prove you are right my friend. Wow. First let me say this, I had always viewed those rims as the cuffs of the pants, not the rim of the shoes, that is why I have never interpreted those as being tucked in the shoes. Anyway, more importantly my friend I stand corrected on an absolutely unbelievable find. I was looking into the Sassanian pants as well, and they seem to follow the same style. So I was having a discussion with my mother about this who spent a lot of time with Kurds and other Traditional ethnic Persians. So the next time I saw her, she walked up to me, with my GRANDMOTHERS pair of pants, sassanid pleated pants with the attached hose. Yes, fully pleated pants that were hoes, they are in black. They are unreal and gorgeous beyond words. I will try and take a photo to post for you guys. It is not only that they are hoes, but the pleats are in them as well. The pleats are different from the Achaemenids, but nonetheless, they are hoes and she was telling me that not only were they absolutely authentic and common but they are very very traditional in ancient Persian wear. Random discussion that was brought up based on the facts that you presented and then fully supported by my mother shoeing me these pants. I was blown away. I will try and get a picture up right away.

Ardeshir
Ardeshir Radpour
Reply
#43
They were my great grandmothers, they are tiny, I tried to get them on, but they are too small for me. hahaha, way too small.
Ardeshir Radpour
Reply
#44
Somewhere I saw that Stephen May was looking for images and I thought it a good place to post one here.
Kind regards
Reply
#45
Thats great Stephanos, what is the rough date of it?

There seems to be two 'types' of Skythians represented in Greek art. Those with floppy hats and those with pointy hats
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
Reply


Forum Jump: