Noah\'s Ark found?

[ParthianBow]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/evangelists ... -tnlg.html

No comment.

[Jona Lendering]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/evangelists-...-tnlg.html
No comment.

So let me do the commenting. If they've found something "on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey", then we really have a miracle, because (a) the Bible does not mention a mountain named Ararat (it does mention a country), and (b) if there was an ark, it can never rest on that summit, as it received its name from western travelers like Marco Polo, who used an erroneous translation that rendered "mountains of Ararat" as "the mountain Ararat".

The location that was named in Antiquity is way down to the south, near Cizre, where the tomb of Noah is still venerated. The people over there, Muslims and Christians, have never bothered much about western theology. And rightly so. My series on common errors comes in handy again: [url:381tyhtn]http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/common-errors-2-ararat/[/url]

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I just consulted the ark of the covenant which has been in my basement after the last move, and when i opened it and told of this new story........

a roar of laughter came out of it..........

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds that one had never been found above 3500m in the vicinity, Yeung said.

That's good logic. "...we've never found one, so none ever existed...." People like that aren't thinking clearly, I'd say.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Not really... most of the stuff we as re-enactors make was found, a lot of interpretations people in our hobby make are ruled out because they were not found or described...

If the logic you use applies, then Roman legionaries might have been able to fly, had bycicles and a lot of other "interpretations"

Living above 3500 meters is not the thing most people would do. Of course there might be a settlement found one day.

However, taking the Noah story into account one should not forget its origin, the Gilgamesj epos, no matter what faith you belong to.

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

No, I was being sarcastic, meaning, that it's not logical at all to assume that since X has never been found it never existed. They used to say that Troy never existed: Homer just made it up in the Odessey. Then they dug it up, and the rest is history.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Sorry, wrong again... they never did find Troy... they name a site in Turkey Troy, because one mister Schliemann thought that must have been it....

we are left with about 9 Troys at present, stacked up in a Tell somewhere in Turkey. No proof whatsoever has been ever presented that the remains which were found were Trojan at all.

Wishful thinking in Archaeology and history make bad science.

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

They used to say that Troy never existed: Homer just made it up in the Odessey. Then they dug it up

Yup; but there's a difference between Schliemann, who had actually read the sources, and these "evangelical explorers", who have not. If they had read the Bible, the would not be looking on the summit where they have found ancient wood (which is an interesting find, BTW). Had they read the Hebrew text, or a decent translation (KJV for example), they would have known that it says that the Ark rests "on the mountains of Ararat" (i.e., Urartu).

I postpone judgment about the historical truth behind the Great Flood - it's a matter of belief, and essentially beyond human knowledge. But not reading your sources is just stupid.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

As is the statement that the city of Troy was ever found.

M.VIB.M.

[Jona Lendering]

As is the statement that the city of Troy was ever found.

You're technically right. We know that the place now called Troy VIII/IX was called Ilion, but we cannot go beyond that; was Troy VI/VII, often identified with the "homeric" Troy, ever called Ilion, Ilios, or Wilusa? We cannot obtain real certainty, until we find texts.

At the same time, there is an element of special pleading in it. This type of argument would mean that we cannot call Mycenae Mycenae, Greek Thebes Thebes, or Knossos Knossos. Nor could we identify, say, Pasargadae. It would mean that in Holland, we're only certain that Nijmegen = Noviomagus and Vechten = Fectio, because those are the only sites where we have an epigraphic record of the ancient name.

Of course, I usually sympathetize with this type of scepticism. There are far too many ill-founded identifications; the Frisians are a case in point (explanation). Yet, one can be a bit too skeptical. There are limits to skepticism. As far as I am concerned, if we can identify Utrecht with Traiectum, even though there is a gap in the occupation and even though there is no epigraphic evidence for the name of the town, I think we'r also allowed to identify Troy VI/VII with Ilion. Probably not the town of Priam, who is a legendary figure, but certainly the city that Homer believed to have been a mighty city.

That being said: skepsis will always be a virtue.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

True, some scepticism can go too far, as also stoic beliefs can be taken too far.. Leiden still is not called Matilo, and of a lot of the places in the Netherlands we do not have a clue... same with "the island of the batavi" and other such claims to fame the Dutch seem to have in general...

Betuwe, Batavi, Nijmegen, Noviomagus, uTRECHT, Traiectum, maasTRICHT Traiectum ad mosam et cetera........

I merely was implying the quote: "if it was not found it does not nessecarily mean it did not exist" is a false statement.

for if that were true, i could start re-enacting a certain tribe described by Herodotus who lit certain plants, inhaled the smoke and started to act funny....... :mrgreen:

M.VIB.M.

[M. Demetrius]

i could start re-enacting a certain tribe described by Herodotus who lit certain plants, inhaled the smoke and started to act funny.

Well, you could still do that if you want...you'd probably be able to find lots of folks to come out to your events and participate, you know?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Indeedydoodah !!!

M.VIB.M.

[rusty myers]

I would be careful with absolutes. History and Archeology have a way of providing surprises that make the "smartest guys in the room" suddenly look awfully foolish...

[Paullus Scipio]

Henk/Marcus Vibius Maurinus wrote:

for if that were true, i could start re-enacting a certain tribe described by Herodotus who lit certain plants, inhaled the smoke and started to act funny.......

..though I expect you know this, for the benefit of the readership at large, Herodotus' statements IV.23 ( also referred to by Hesychius of Alexandra in his lexicon) about Scythians use of hemp/marijuana were largely verified by Rudenko's excavation of frozen tombs in the Altai mountains in 1929. The apparatus used, and even burnt hemp seeds, identified by Rudenko as Cannabis sativa L. of the variety C. rideralus were intact in all the tombs ( although only one complete set was found, due to ancient looting). There is however some controversy since later re-examination revealed that some of the seeds at least, were coriander......