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Cloak buttons/any buttons
#31
Attested archeologically are the weapons suspension, and the suspension for equine pendants.

The use as a button for a cloack is possible, but how it works? How can atach it to the wool?
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#32
David.
All the button loop fasteners I have are one piece cast items and the triangular shaped brackets may well have gone thro' a slot in the material and been stitched in place. Then where you mention the button hole being of later period I would think we have to take a re-think on that, for a button hole is only a slot in a piece of material.

Infact where Tim Edwards mentions the Camomile Street Soldier and says there is no visible loop, he is right for one would not see a loop for it is stitched into the material. Then also where he says that the fastener spans the join of the garment it most certainly would if the button hole is near the edge.
There were soldiers whose cloaks had very decorative edging with infact even tassles at various intervals along the edges, and just a couple of centimeters of ropework edge unstitched could serve as a button hole.
Brian Stobbs
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#33
Brian, how would you discern these from disc fibulae? Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#34
Christian.
A disc Fibulae can be removed by undoing it's pin from it's catchplate where a button loop fastener may well have been stitched permanently to material, however a disc fibulae is not the subject of discussion for the topic is Cloak buttons/any buttons.
Brian Stobbs
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#35
Brian,

As far as I can see from following this discussion you are employing a circular argument to justify the use of these fasteners with clothing. Everyone is admitting that this is a possibility, but it has been pointed out more than once that whilst we have proper contextual evidence for their use in sword suspension, their employment as clothing fasteners is purely conjectural.

Anyway, I stated that you were using a circular argument so i should justify that statement by explaining.

You seem to be saying that they are called clothing fasteners because that is what they were and that is proved by the appearance of similar looking objects on one sculpture and on coins. Then, you seem to be trying to prove that what are shown in these representations are button and loop fasteners by pointing out that they are generally identified as clothing fasteners.

Now, I may be wrong in my interpretation of your argument but I have been following this thread pretty closely and I think I understand what each participant is saying.

As Christian says, the coin images are too small for the cloak fasteners shown on them to be securely identified as button and loop fasteners, whilst there is ample reason to think that they might be disc broaches in any case. In addition to this, Tim has shown, pretty convincingly I think, that there is a very good case for thinking that the cloak fasteners shown on the Camomile Street soldier sculpture may very well be broaches which are passing through both parts of the cloak.

In pointing out that this thread is about cloak buttons you are of course right, but I think that the content of the thread so far make a good overall case for suggesting that he title of the thread should perhaps more correctly be called 'Cloak fastenings' instead. It is therefore in this context that the discussion is occurring.

As everyone has conceded, you may be right that these items were used as clothing fasteners, but I feel that what is frustrating a number of us is that whereas incontravertable evidence has been cited for their use in sword suspension, the only evidence you have so far cited is far too subjective for us to draw any firm identification from. Therefore I must ask you, if you propose to carry on with the proposition that they are clothing fasteners, to produce a better piece of evidence than you already have done, which cannot be so heavily swayed by assumption. If you know of a burial which has featured a skeleton with a pair of button and loop fasteners lying on its sternum or a cremation urn which contained a button and loop fastener, then please, do tell us. I can assure you that we would all be very excited to know about it. If you do not know of such good evidence however, could you please be a little more accommodating to those who have actually cited proper evidence to back up their statements. :|

Crispvs
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#36
I've posted this before, but there is a bronze toggle button identified as being clothing-related in the Grosvenor Museum at Chester (Deva). The museum description of its use is rather questionable! (unless there were organic remains attached when found)

[Image: untitled1.jpg]

I have seen other examples of this type of fastener.

[Image: toggle2.jpg]
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#37
Unless it's actually a highly stylized phallus.... :mrgreen:

But seriously, that would be ideal with a leather loop.
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