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dyeing linen
#62
Quote:Vortigern StudiesAs I read this discussion, you introduced the sagum as a military cloack, while Graham tells us that it could be worn by civilians as well. What question remains?

To recap:

The "white" forces generally take the position that your tunic as a soldier can be any color you want, so long as it is white.

I introduced a picture of a mosaic showing what looks suspiciously like a a soldier wearing a green tunic with clavii.

The "white" forces demurred for a variety of reasons saying among other things it was a mosaic of an agricultural worker.

I pointed out he was wearing a tunic with clavii (hence a Roman citizen) and a sagum (military garb-hence a soldier).

The "white" forces stated, I think quite clearly, that clavii signify nothing and less clearly that the sagum is just a square piece of cloth that was worn by everyone, slaves included.

Oh, and the "white" forces pointed out the subject was next to a pig.

Hence, the "white" forces argue, what we see is clearly a slave.

I am unpersuaded.

At least in the early times, the clavii meant nobility and later citizenship. The Romans were stuck on formality. The "everyone wore everything" argument does not square with this tendency of theirs nor does it seem a proven proposition.

The sagum is depicted many times in military grave steles and is frequently pictured draped with the right (sword) arm free and the rest thrown over the left shoulder. This even appears in several figures, I think, in one of Graham Sumner's books and are identified as soldiers. The stylization is the same: Sagum draped over the left shoulder, sword arm free.

The entire mosaic shows Neptune as a central figure, with what appear to be scenes from everyday life. It also shows nude guys and gals.

To me, it does not follow that this particular figure is a slave. He carries several baskets and a pig is nearby, but given the variety of thematic material in the mosaic, it is a leap of logic to say this is a slave, when he is depicted with many of the features of a soldier.

John
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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Messages In This Thread
dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-01-2010, 05:06 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Jvrjenivs - 04-01-2010, 05:12 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Matthew Amt - 04-02-2010, 02:56 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-02-2010, 03:17 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 04-02-2010, 03:27 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-02-2010, 03:41 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-02-2010, 03:48 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-02-2010, 03:51 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Matthew Amt - 04-02-2010, 04:44 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Matthew Amt - 04-02-2010, 08:17 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-02-2010, 08:22 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Marcus Mummius - 04-02-2010, 08:49 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 04-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Tim Edwards - 04-03-2010, 02:54 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Nathan Beal - 04-04-2010, 11:55 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-05-2010, 03:36 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Cheyenne - 04-05-2010, 10:57 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 04-06-2010, 02:31 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-06-2010, 03:19 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-06-2010, 03:25 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 04-19-2010, 04:11 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 04-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-01-2010, 12:03 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Matthew Amt - 05-01-2010, 02:47 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-01-2010, 02:07 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-01-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-01-2010, 07:06 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Cheyenne - 05-01-2010, 07:30 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-01-2010, 07:37 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-01-2010, 08:10 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Marcus Mummius - 05-01-2010, 08:22 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Marcus Mummius - 05-01-2010, 08:25 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-01-2010, 08:27 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-01-2010, 08:52 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-01-2010, 11:06 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-01-2010, 11:39 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-02-2010, 12:41 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-02-2010, 12:28 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-03-2010, 01:27 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-03-2010, 01:31 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-03-2010, 01:37 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-03-2010, 02:07 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Jona Lendering - 05-03-2010, 06:43 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-03-2010, 02:51 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-03-2010, 03:51 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-03-2010, 06:51 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-03-2010, 09:38 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-03-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-03-2010, 10:05 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-03-2010, 10:22 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-03-2010, 10:26 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-03-2010, 10:41 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-04-2010, 09:31 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-04-2010, 11:40 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-05-2010, 12:13 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-05-2010, 01:01 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-05-2010, 03:17 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-05-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-05-2010, 03:42 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Doc - 05-05-2010, 03:51 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Epictetus - 05-05-2010, 06:30 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-05-2010, 03:08 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-05-2010, 03:21 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Lepidina - 05-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-05-2010, 04:01 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-05-2010, 04:37 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-05-2010, 05:26 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-05-2010, 10:21 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-06-2010, 08:32 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-06-2010, 11:43 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Robert Vermaat - 05-08-2010, 12:44 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-08-2010, 10:18 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-08-2010, 05:44 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-09-2010, 08:57 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-09-2010, 03:17 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-09-2010, 09:50 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-09-2010, 10:42 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Crispvs - 05-09-2010, 10:55 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-09-2010, 11:12 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-10-2010, 08:26 AM
Re: dyeing linen - by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-10-2010, 12:07 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-10-2010, 12:42 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by John M McDermott - 05-10-2010, 05:04 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by caiusbeerquitius - 05-10-2010, 05:19 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Graham Sumner - 05-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-10-2010, 07:49 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Martin - 12-29-2010, 11:22 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by richard - 12-15-2013, 04:12 PM
Re: dyeing linen - by Caratacus - 12-15-2013, 11:25 PM
Re: scouring and dyeing linen - by richard - 12-16-2013, 01:29 AM

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