Greek Monetary Crisis Solved?

[Epictetus]

Greek ruins make a great backdrop for protests.

I'm not sure how useful the "hammer and sickle" image is for them, though. :?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thats the local dinosaurs, er I mean Communist Party. Always ready to cash in on a crisis.
I happened to wander right through their rally last year during the elections. More of a hinderence to free movement
to the majority of people trying to make their way past.

[Idomeneas]

To tell you the truth i tried to stay away from this subject, but it seems i cant resist..
I understand the hype about Greek crisis and i think that to a point all these comments, articles and even mocking are well deserved to a point. Many people here gets angry and recite the usually ''when we had sculptures like Venus of Melos, the Germans were living on trees''. Well usually i respond ''then we are twice the fools they think we are''. There are many wrongs in the Greek state and i dont mind when people point those wrongs. But i cant stand offensive blatand lies, like the one suggesting that Greeks dont work enough. Yes Greek puplic servants usually dont work enough but private sector Greek work like crazy for rediculous money. The average wage is 900 euros in a market that is more expensive than the one in Holland (i use it as example cause i saw myself) except the rent rates. When i say 900 euros i dont mean entry salary. The official entry salary for desk job was until now 700. An average rent for an apartment about 80m2 is about 400+. An average price to buy an apartment about 80m2 in a relatively cheap area is 150000 euros and an average morgage is about 800-1000 euros.
Most people i know work very hard. The overtime usually is not payed so you get to work 10 or 12 hours a day basically just to keep your job. And this is the rule for the last 10+ years, its not a crisis thing. This happens cause usually there are less people to carry out the job so the norm is to work at least for 1,5 pearsons if not 2 (at least in my field). Im 31 and most of the people i know get payed at best 1500 euros. And im talking about proffessions like multimedia designers, web and graphic designers, tourist agents, sound designers, decorators, civil engineers and lawyers.
So we get it alittle personal when you have rest europeans saying ''you must work more''. How much more? The next stage is to be sold slaves (ooups IMF we already did that). Especially when we hear about the corrupted Greece from goverments that were basically conspirators in major scandals like faulty overpaid weapons, communication systems, debt consealement and many more.

The problem about Greece is that basically its not a sovereign state! If it was, because of the geostrategic position and cultural background, would be possibly the best place to be in europe. The goverments are basically a puppet play and taught through personal favors Greeks to care only for themselves and see nothing, speak nothing. The local politician would offer in turn of a vote, a job in public sector, a better army place when you are drafted, a license for a shop, a lisence to build where you shouldnt build, a promise for a road to your village etc. The Greek people should wake up from its slumber and stop caring about their self and family only.

I cant ask from anyone here to stop making fan of us cause its natural to be mocked when you are begging for scraps of the table. I just want to notice that Greek people are not lazy at all. They are working as hard as anyone, for half the money at best.

XAIPETE

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I am in agreement on part of the comment you wrote, Greek people definetely are not lazy.

That we here in the western part of Europe think they are, is only because in our media there is talk of a 13th and 14th month in wages, and the "fact" Greek citizens do not or did not or were not paying taxes. Also an example was shown about a tax law in Athens for people owning swimming pools, and after a count only 300 paid their dues on a swimming pool on a total of 13000 or something like that.

The Greek governments ! of years past have been at fault for the state in which Greece is at present. The Greek people have been fighting their government for years, left wing radicals like the well known anarchist groups as well as center left and right wing politicians.
I do not know all about Greece but my time in the squatting movement here in the Netherlands and my contacts with Greek activists in the past opened my eyes to the mess Greece is in as far back as the 80's

That the EU now as a Roman patron extorts the Greek people with loans trhough their government in order to salvage a European fake state which is prone to financial destruction is not a good thing at all . Now even talk begins about Spain, Portugal and all those other poorer countries we first wanted in the EU for some moronic status feeling , and now we look concerned and frightened at them because of fear they will turn into the Greek problem.

The Euro is plagiarism of the Denarius, and where Rome did have some order and some form of centralised government which worked, the EU countries keep trying to get their own national agenda in before the European agenda. This ruins the EU from the inside. Why try to make a European community, without the guts to go federal.

I support all Greek protesters who go onto the street everyday, though i do not support the violence, at least in so far as it is not in self defence.

I do think however the Greek nation should rise up against its government. they have every right to do so.

(note to the moderators: this entire thread is about modern politics, you can keep it on here or delete it, but do not criticize me or any other poster for joining this debate....)

(question for the admins: can you PLEASE put up a Roman flag in the nationalities section so i can finally state my true allegiance, which is Ancient Rome, not any other present day existing country or nationality, i find my passport a nuisance as well as my nationality which i am sad to say is Dutch/European, hence the Vatican flag under my avatar...)


M.VIB.M.

[Paullus Scipio]

All the above show some insight into the problems of Greece/European Union. Another aspect is that the currency value of a country is generally dependant on it's economy. Unfortunately, the value of the 'Euro' is largely based on the higher performing economies such as Germany. It is folly for poorer economies such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and maybe ( a little higher up the scale) Italy to pay themselves in high value 'Euros'. The ultimate solution is for either Greece or Germany to abandon the Euro as currency.......then Germany and its robust economy can raise the value of their new currency , or alternately if Greece ( and other poorer economies) leave then their new currencies can adjust to reflect their economies.

The U.K., ever parochial, retained the pound sterling, and did not adopt the Euro. Although it is arguably in a poorer position than Greece, its independent currency could devalue to reflect Britain's economy and thus the British do not find themselves in such desperate straits as Greece

[Idomeneas]

Allow me to shed some light on some hot spots of Greek working system.
The 13th and 14th salary. For Xmass bonus each worker gets an extra salary (13th), in turn he pays xmass bonuses to some services, like taxis, hairdressers, cafes, bars etc in order to circulate the extra money in the market. As Easter bonus they get half a salary and another half during August which was (and i mean was) vacation time usually. You may think ''oh those lucky Greeks'' dont haste to say it. Instead of having a good salary to support your needs, the employers in conjunction with state, allow you to have some extra money in periods that usually its customed to spend more and in this way they put you back to sleep. If they incorporate the 13th and 14th salary in the wages they will still have to pay alot more in order to balance the market costs. The fact is that the prices rise every year several times, but this doesnt happen to wages, so you end up with less value for money every year.
There were some rediculous articles in Bild about Greek pensions. They said that its about 3000 euro. HAHAHAHAHAHA common guys the man that wrote this propably never came here, even the names he used were clearly fake. There are people with high pensions but most of the times that means that they payed alot more during their working years for health and pension plan.
Let me give you an example. Lets say that you work in a company and you have a salary of 1600 euro. As payment you take 1200 and the 400 plus an amount payed by the employer goes for your pension and healthcare. Lets note that if you had the right to overide the social security state system, the private company would propably hire bodyguards to care for you.

I agree that you cant have a Union when eveybody have their own agenda. It is known that Greece is in a state of cold war with Turkey and from time to time things get very hot. Thus you have a small country forced to be armed and rearmed all the time spending huge amount of funds. Somebody may expected that EU would back up Greece making clear that would support a member of EU in a case of attack. Nope... instead they sell us weapons and compete the USA sellers.
Many production lines in Greece were basically closed down or discouraged because their production would rival the one of other EU northern countries. From shiprepairs to fishing boats and agriculture.

So.. is Greec corrupted? Absolutely! Is Greece alone in corruption? Absolutely not! It takes two to tango...

PS if anyone has the notion that Greeks are having a party it would be great to live and work just for one month in Greek conditions. Please note that we wont pay the therapist fees after the ''experience''. The next worse to Greece are former socialist or soviet countries, absolutely no relation to northern european ones.

[Robert Vermaat]

(question for the admins: can you PLEASE put up a Roman flag in the nationalities section so i can finally state my true allegiance, which is Ancient Rome, not any other present day existing country or nationality, i find my passport a nuisance as well as my nationality which i am sad to say is Dutch/European, hence the Vatican flag under my avatar...).

HJ, the Romans did not have national flags, and even if they did phpBB does not have it. You could go Ialian as a surrogate.
What do you mean a Vatican flag? You currectly show the Solomon Islands. Solomon. Like the Biblical king, perhaps?

[Robert Vermaat]

Now even talk begins about Spain, Portugal and all those other poorer countries we first wanted in the EU for some moronic status feeling , and now we look concerned and frightened at them because of fear they will turn into the Greek problem.

Don't believe everything the papers say. Spain is not in heavy debt (just a slow re-starter out of the recession), and Portugal's debt is not that different from a lot of other European countries. It's just a mantra that journalists want to repeat. Watch out for Portugal and Spain. Watch out for Portugal and Spain. Watch out for Portugal and Spain. Watch out for Portugal and Spain. Watch out for Portugal and Spain.
At lenght, as politicians know, repeating a lie will make it a truth. Then, the trust in the market suddenly goes (like last Friday) and then we get a new recession. :evil:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

You are so right ! and that is exactly my problem with this Union, the fear mongering media worldwide, and the financial problems the invisible lobby is causing....

Back to my tin foil hat......

:twisted:

Ah yes the vatican flag was removed since i now am a resident of Guadalcanal.

I know the Romans did not have a national flag, but a symbol would have been nice.....

M.VIB.M.

[hoplite14gr]

Yes owning your currency is better.
Britain and the European countries out of the Euro are being proved vindicated under the circumstances.

Idomeneas was not exaggerating when he said that Greeks work more for less.

If the state evades its obligations then people will turn to tax evasion.

Also the bail out is not for the Greeks but for the banks or governments who loaned the Greek state.
The could have refuse to loan in the first place.
Point the finger at the Greeks (who have their share of responsibility too) and conveniently forget that loans were approved
by "negligent" bank or state officials. :twisted:

Well there was the option of a flat "No" to the bailout but then the savers whose money would be lost would like to ask whose signature was
on the loan approval :twisted:

Our partners in could have penalized us by letting us out of the monetary union but then the Euro would would disintegrate.
But now they can boast how benevolent they are :twisted:

Perhaps people involved in the "arrangements" read Lucians works where he wrote:
"You cannot take from the one who has nothing." :twisted:

Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

.......It is folly for poorer economies such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and maybe ( a little higher up the scale) Italy to pay themselves in high value 'Euros'.......

The problem I see is that when you are paying high prices for everything, you either need higher wages to get by, or you are destitute are need state handouts......you can't expect one without the other.

If prices are so high because of high taxes, there seems to be an obvious solution. And it is not only applcable to Greece.

And I don't mean running out in the streets and destroying property and peoples livelihoods and lives.....that only compounds the problems.... :evil:

[PhilusEstilius]

Byron.

I think that I'm inclined to agree with you and indeed it can well become a problem also for the not so poorer countries, in our latest political situation here in the UK there could well be an increase in VAT tax which will become hard for many of the not so well off. Then should we hit a double dip situation we ourselves could very well look a bit like Greece, for it all depends on if our economy has growth to get us out of the mire.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

And today we hear Estland is allowed to join the Euro....

I so much wish the Roman empire was still in existence..

M.VIB.M.

[Idomeneas]

.......It is folly for poorer economies such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and maybe ( a little higher up the scale) Italy to pay themselves in high value 'Euros'.......

The problem I see is that when you are paying high prices for everything, you either need higher wages to get by, or you are destitute are need state handouts......you can't expect one without the other.

If prices are so high because of high taxes, there seems to be an obvious solution. And it is not only applcable to Greece.

And I don't mean running out in the streets and destroying property and peoples livelihoods and lives.....that only compounds the problems.... :evil:

The prices are not high only because of the taxes. The prices are high because of corruption also. For example european megastore departments always sell the same products more expensive in Greece. Lidl, Carrefur, Ikea you name it. Next you have the cartels about numerous products and services. From milk to agricultural products and supermarkets, Greeks pay more than any european. Greeks and european businesses are in this together and goverments do nothing, simply because these people own them or threat that they will close down leaving thousands of people unemployed.
The fact is that EU knows and knew everything that goes wrong here. They knew about the missmanagement and theft of EU money, they knew about the debt. Acting like disapointed and benevolent parent simply wont cut it. The ''offended'' German press about the ''lazy'' Greeks, forgot to tell the German people about the pressing eurofighter deals, about the problematic leopard tanks, about the problematic submarines and systems like C4I that were sold. You remember that cool Zeppeling flying over Athens during the Olympics? It supposed to monitor the area for terrorist actions. Well guess again people. That thing was just a nice baloon, the systems were not working. It was another great deal with honest and surprised by Greek corruption EU partners.

[Robert Vermaat]

For example european megastore departments always sell the same products more expensive in Greece. Lidl, Carrefur, Ikea you name it. Next you have the cartels about numerous products and services. From milk to agricultural products and supermarkets, Greeks pay more than any european.

I'm not sure how much Greek prices differ from avarage prices in the rest of Europe. What I DO know is that it's not a case of ONLY Greeks paying more. Prices differ throughout Europe due to a number of reasons. For instance, petrol prices differ because of taxes or local pricing agreements. Certain medication over here (The Netherlands) is costing far more than in Italy. And if you to to Norway, food costs more than in The Netherlands.