(02-18-2012, 06:26 PM)Steve Kaye Wrote: I don't think the individual legionaries were fresh from N.Africa, afterall, the invasion was 17 years old. Hardy they were and acclimatised to the UK. Their water need is extrapolated from USArmy and Nato studies for marching, fully loaded, combat troops operating in temperate climes (not N.Africa). The USArmy gives a sustaining water requirement of 20litres/man/day and 12.? for the minimum. My 9 litres/legionary/day is based on a tougher man, marching for his life, not caring too much if he misses a wash or two. Also, my lower figure adds an additional level of conservatism to the hydrology vs water-need calculations.9 litres is 19 lbs of water. This means your average 160lbs legionary has replaced 19lbs, 3lbs an hour, of sweat in a days march and remained fully hydrated, to sweat 19 lbs means a lot level of physical activty, like doing an Iron man events of 2.4 klm swim, 112 mile bike ride and then a marathorn to require that exchange rate, and burn 6000 calories, which his ration can replace at best half.https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-physiological-view-of-what-the-human-body-goes-through-in-an-ironman-2/
Your average roman at 160lbs, under 100lbs load weight burns 500 calories an hour, so 3000 a day, at 60lbs 400 an hour, 2500, at 100lbs he is expending more than he is replacing.
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad...estimator/
Your paper on events, page 4 gives a therorical 22 operational bound, ( which is wrong as its 30 days, who will carry the next month 30 day ration when it arrives is unclear) based on 3/4 rest, leaving 638klm to be covered when marching, so actual marching days is not 29klm, but 34klm as you cant march and rest at the same time.next is romans were trained to march at 2.5mph for 6.2hours a day, which is 16mpd, you have them at 21mpd., so your force matching every day you march, and doing what no Roman ever achieved.
You give 17 days rations and equipment a weight of 95lbs. Romans used Posca so around a third of the water is wine instead. Yet you make zero allocation for weight of water carried, at 19lbs a man thats 152 lbs to be carried per 8 men and 2 mules, yet you have acounted for all the 300lbs on the mules already without it.
You then detail its the 2 mule ( who estimates 300lbs?) per 8 man so 1250 mules, you allow for them 85lbs in food in 17 days, so 5lbs a mule a day, almost a third what is needed to keep them alive if they can graze for hay,See US Army Regs for Mules with 220 lbs load, so increasing the load increases the food ration to 14lbs, so your giving them third of what they require.
Mules – Paragraph 1121. “For mules, fourteen pounds of hay and nine pounds of oats, corn, or barley.”146
Or you could use the current Regs http://thepeakinc.com/wp-content/uploads...s.-pdf.pdf
Key bits are Mules can carry (150 to 300 pounds [lb]).
Field Rations
2-50. The detachment uses this ration while it is deployed so the pack animals can maintain condition and strength during heavy work. The field ration contains an allowance of about 12 pounds of grain (10 for mules), 14 pounds of hay, and no bedding. Normally, a pack animal requires about 8 gallons of water per day. However, the temperature and amount of work being performed will determine water requirements, you allow them 30 when they require a min of 36, and you have them at max weight carried so water needs will be prorportianly higher.
You compare to US self hydration, but use the average of all units, so combat units, actual 6 litres (13lbs) a man, inc 6 hand washes day, 2 toothbrushes a day and sponge bath ( Romans dont use toothbrushes), plus allowances for the support services inc clothing laundry, 5 showers a week, Aircraft maintence, Enginering, inc water used in Vechicles to generate the potable water and in radiators of MTV to transport it, to get it up to the number you used.file:///C:/Users/User1/Downloads/MP-HFM-086-$$ALL.pdf You ignore that the US Army brings the river to the Army, while teh Roman Army brings teh Army to the water source, so pre and post march uses the local water for most of its needs, nd only needs to carry what he it requires for the marching period of the day, its difficult to see a less appropriate comparission.
So your Table 1 water requirment is inacurate, as is the marching rates, so any use of either makes non sense.
(08-05-2012, 02:24 PM)Steve Kaye Wrote:https://www.academia.edu/11918646/Wartim...thropologyQuote:Does anyone have, or know of, battle sites where the disposal figures are known?
Maybe of topic, but some may find it of interest.
Roman legions at 60lbs inc ration, WBTS USA 60lbs inc ration.
Romans trained to march at 2.5 mph for 6.4 hours, exactly how caeser averaged, WBTS was not that different mostly because 2000 odd years is not enough timje to change the length of a human pace.
US Qm reports for WBTS can give us some clues, on what happens to over worked mules, and the effects on Army movement rates from using the same technology, except for a better throat harness so wagons get bigger as animals can pull more. USA had overa million mules for the war, 1 for every 3 men, c250k did not survive the war.
May 25, 1863 Brigadier General R. Ingalls Chief Quartermaster Army of the Potomac
Working them badly/hard for 7 days.Their average load was over 220 pounds.
1st Div 78 mules. 16 dead, or lost requiring replacements, to sore backs etc.
3rd div 56 mules. 3 dead, or lost requiring replacements, to sore backs etc..
Loss rate 15%.
Effect on march rates of the Army train on movement rates.
QM for the whole Army
"With all these hindrances to encounter, our armies, on a five days march make from ten to fifteen miles daily in the winter, and from fourteen to seventeen miles in the summer. But for the delay of the train, there is no doubt that the average daily distance attained would be six miles more. The calculation is equally accurate when applied to forced marches; for though twenty and even twenty-two miles may be made for each of three consecutive days, respect must at last be had to the arrival of the wagons."
Army size he is giving from AoP, a mule to every 3 men, plus horses, yes they are mostly carrying munitions rather than food, but its the weight thats the thing.
One hundred and twenty thousand (120,000) effective fighting men, six thousand three hundred (6,300) wagons, nine hundred (900) ambulances, thirty-two thousand (32,000) artillery, cavalry, ambulance, and draught horses, four thousand five hundred (4,500) private horses, and thirty-six thousand mules, making an aggregate in all of some seventy-two thousand (72,000) animals.
Or to put it another way, yes you can march 20 mpd as the US Army was trained to do, but in practice your logistical elements of wagons/mules, cannot, so you typically move together at the speed of the Army train, however when you get into range of the enemy, you can cut loose from this impediment to your marching speed. In 3 days at Gettysburg the two sides fired c250t of munitions at each other, but they ate and drank c5235t.
One reason why the States fought the AWI was an objection to quartering troops at their expense, so its Mil Regs (articles of war) include paying for what you take because you need it, this changed under Liber code mid war and you dont haveto pay rebels for what you take, its lawfully confiscated under laws congress enacted in the several confiscation acts, food and fodder was the principle $£ cost of the war, not munitions,lanyone talking the loyalty oath gets payed, c60% of the QM costs were for food/fodder, by end of war the CS owed to its own people a billion in CS $ paper requisitions after paying and running out of money, it just wrote IOUs, every 90 days US QM fill in an account for what they payed out, sending it back for checking at Dept for war who the bill to congress, by end of war around third of the food and fodder requirements of the Army had been met by not paying for it but by taking it for free from the CS States. US census figures give us an idea in number values as to how many cattle etc lost to a state that meant, some States moved over by Armies losing c30% of animals.In 1864 the US QM dept was employing 750 steamers average forward lift 250 ton, and 1100 shallow draft inland vessels 150 tons average forward lift. 352500 tons capacity, 775500000lbs, or 800lbs a day per member of the US Army. By contrast the entire RR could deliver 125 lbs a day per member. So, 550000 lbs per steamer. A RR Loco with typically 10 box cars was 200,000lbs, which means a single steamer is doing the job of 3 such trains with barges contributing 1.7. So water borne was 4.7 times more ton miles better than a RR system. Sherman at Atlanta was sucking up 40% of the entire northern locomotive stock to sustain himself there. In General Orders, nos. 5 and 6, Pope ordered, "the troops of this command will subsist upon the country in which their operations are carried on." "no supply or baggage trains of any description will be used unless so stated specifically in the order for the movement." The army would rely almost exclusively on local food sources for both the men and horses" Pope was hand picked by the radicals to prosecute the hard war policy they advocated. Lee remarked, this miscreant must be supressed.
The scale of what you can take from productive land to sustain your armies is in proportion to pop levels and productivity of the region.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gettysburg-Camp...0684845695
"The Cumberland Valley in Maryland and Pennsylvania was so rich in agricultural produce that by June 23, within a week after the first units of Ewell's corps had crossed the Potomac, they had accumulated enough supplies to feed all of his corps until June 30, as well as 1,700 barrels of flour for the rest of the army"." At Mount Jackson in several 000s of bottom land was aprox 26000 head of cattle and 22000 head of sheep taken in Pa and Maryland and sent back"
1700 barrels of flour is 333200lbs of flour, (a llb loaf of bread requires 300 grams of flour)at 450 grams a pound that 499,800 1 lb loaves of bread. Half a million daily rations worth, 5 days worth for a 100k men, this is another example of the ease in which you can live of the land, depending on population density, far easier than being supplied from depot.
ANV was still eating Union meat for xmas, it had gained in Gettysburg campaign, but it cuts both ways, Shenandoah valley took 2 decades to recover from both sides fighting through it for 4 years.
Shenandoah Valley 1860 census production or livestock inventory totals, less the the amount listed as confiscated by Sheridan in his 64 report of his campaign in the valley.
Hogs 184,424 Loss of 12%
Sheep 73,607 Loss of 24%
Cattle 53,957 Loss of 18%
Horses 41,037 Loss of 12%
Hay loss of 31%
Wheat loss of 27%.
Corn loss of 52% by 1870 census, Sheridan came at the wrong time of year and found little of the principle crop of corn to take, Corn crop being 50% larger than wheat.
Lets look at wheat, 1,596,896 bushels produced in 60, what does make?, ie what kind of scale is that when people write its the breadbasket of the confederacy, it makes 63 one lbs loaves of bread a bushel, 100,604,448 loaves of bread, as a mil ration thats enough bread for a CSA Army of 500k to eat a loaf every day for 5 years, Sheridan rode of with nearly a third of that and found it all in 2 months of looking for it.
Lets look at London as a base of supply for the legions, and comercial port, by 359 A.D. 800 cargoes of grain were exported to the the Rhine from london.
There is a mass of cerial crops that can be lived on as you move through the crop lands, Caeser tells us he foraged to 10 miles from teh line of advance, this allows a legion to take froma massive erea.
June 1864, Grant ordered his Chief Quartermaster General, Brevet Major General Ingalls, to create a Naval supply depot at City Point capable of supporting the forces, participating in the siege of Petersburg with food and fodder.
They built or converted, 8 wharves, 350,000 sq feet, exclusive to military traffic, 25 ships a day unloading capacity, around 6250 tons a day, 22 miles of rail lines around the port and warves/storrage sheds to unload int onto RR completed by July 5th, 100,000 sq feet of warehouses for storage, it required 10,000 personnel, Rail line of 22 miles, to the front finished by 2 July, the 24 Trains a day, with 1400 tons of supplies began, finishing by moving 470,000 tons by rail,the return trip brought back the WIA to the 7 Hospitals built at city Point with 10,000 beds, covering 200 acres,and items for repair, over 6k wagons and ambulances which were then sent back to the front, It used 10,000 wagons a day, pulled by 60k horses and mules, driven by 20,00 men on extra duty from the Army moving 130,000 tons to the front. In 334 days, City point had moved over 600,000 tons to the front, which was 30% of what the ships had brought in. There was a seperate munitions port, which CSA was abele to blow upa ship comming in with munitions, which set of a nearby ship in sympathetic explosion, 500 odd tons of munitions wenet up along with those who were killed injured.
In Roman times sea and rivers were the RR** providing the bulk tansfer of cargo.
**USA and CSA RR capacity for the war.
CS RR logistical capability, entire rail inventory for miliitary and civilian use.
1,220 locomotives
13,282 cars of all types, average 8 tons capacity.
So 1220 loads of 88 tons per day, which is 107360 tons a day or 236192000 lbs.
1863 CS Army daily needs of food water fodder, for 480,000 men, 210,000 animals
required 10% of all RR traffic by weight.
US RR logistical capability. The only logistical ability avaiable to invade the south with was the USMR and its assets, rest of the North Rail carried on commerce as usual.
USMR, 419 locomotives with 6,330 cars average 10 ton capacity.
So each day 419 loads of 62850 tons, or 138270000 lbs, 60% of the entire CS rail capacity devoted to supply of its forces.
1863 US Army daily requirements of food water and fodder using the entire USMR can deliver 35% of daily needs. So on the border and for the first 100 miles into the CSA the USMR can supply 35% of your daily requirements, the further you go the worse it gets.
Sherman at Atlanta in 64 with 100k men and 30k animals was 400 miles from his base of supply, so there were 4 days supplies in the RR supply chain to feed what was eaten each day, this required 40% of the total rail capacity to move it each day just to eat for the day.
Legion of 5000 rations at 2.2 ( by weight and calorie intake its a low number, by WW2 German fighting/in hospital formations got over 3lbs while garrisons and admin units under 3lbs) for 30 days weighs 330000, so to bring rations each month to the army requires 1500 mules* or its equivalent, this on itself places a limit to your operations, 15 days there and 15 back, puts a ton mile capacity into play, ie 270 miles from a base of supply is the re supply limit, or you need more mules. But if you use a river, which is like a RR, 5 river barges each pulled by mules, you can do the same thing at 3mp. But then enemy is not always bya river, its only then your going to have to use Mules and people.
How many mules did Rome have access to?.
https://www.berksarch.co.uk/index.php/th...rspective/ Mules make up half the equids, and c500k in use by the Augustan Army, so perhaps 2 mules for each soldier.
