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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Nathan, on first reading Mommsen's text I also thought he supported the 'cavalry dash', but he isn't. Read the preceding sentence before, "If he really went thither,... " , and the true meaning of this 19th century English translation of the original German should become clearer. It is tricky though.

Plus, Prof. Overbeck in his paper writes of Mommsen's text, " Well then, should we suppose that Tacitus made up the entire passage out of whole cloth, as we must if Suetonius did not go to Londinium? In fact Tacitus does give us a reason for Suetonius' march: it was to apprise himself of the situation in this center of communications, military stores, and population (a center the importance of which Tacitus carefully impresses on us at this very point) and to consider whether it could serve as a base for operations. His conclusion was that it could not, and so he abandoned it. Doubtless this was a painful decision to make, but Tacitus seems to have agreed it was necessary. Mommsen's criticism fails to take full account of Tacitus' narrative."

Regards, Steve Kaye
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(01-10-2021, 03:50 PM)Steve Kaye Wrote: on first reading Mommsen's text I also thought he supported the 'cavalry dash', but he isn't.

Ah yes, it seems you're right! Although it's a fairly tortuous bit of prose, as you say...

Mommsen seems to be assuming that Paulinus 'wished to sacrifice Londinium' before he had even commenced operations!
Nathan Ross
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It looks as if the idea may have originated with Mommsen; he certainly does not allude to its having been suggested by anyone else.  He asserts that the only way Suetonius could have gone to London would have been if he were accompanied by his personal escort, his main army being elsewhere.  This he dismisses as a meaningless exercise.  I don't think that many of us here would disagree with that.  However, the implication is that he does not believe Tacitus when he says that Suetonius did go to London.  What seems to have followed is that other commentators, Overbeck included, who do believe Tacitus' account, have nevertheless accepted Mommsen's assertion that, if so, he could only have had his personal escort with him, hence the cavalry dash.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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I have no problem with the so called "cavalry dash" being made up of Suetonius' guard cavalry. Many consuls did recces during the republic with their guard cavalry, Scipio at the Ticinus comes to mind. However, I am not sure if some of the posters on this forum oppose this interpretation or are for this interpretation.
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(01-11-2021, 05:20 AM)Steven James Wrote: I have no problem with the so called "cavalry dash" being made up of Suetonius' guard cavalry. Many consuls did recces during the republic with their guard cavalry, Scipio at the Ticinus comes to mind.

I don't think that there is any comparison.  As I read Polybius and Livy, the Roman and Carthaginian armies were an close proximity and Scipio led out all his cavalry and javelineers.  This is a world away from dashing 250-odd miles ahead of his main army, through hostile territory, with just his personal bodyguard for protection, when the slightest mishap could have resulted in a whole province being left leaderless.  This is not the conduct of a cautious general who liked to leave nothing to chance.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Renatus wrote:
I don't think that there is any comparison. As I read Polybius and Livy, the Roman and Carthaginian armies were an close proximity and Scipio led out all his cavalry and javelineers. This is a world away from dashing 250-odd miles ahead of his main army, through hostile territory, with just his personal bodyguard for protection, when the slightest mishap could have resulted in a whole province being left leaderless. This is not the conduct of a cautious general who liked to leave nothing to chance.
 
Can it be confirmed with certainty the distance between the main army and Suetonius was 250 miles? If Suetonius did make such a long journey with only his guard cavalry, it would not be the first time.
 
In 198 BC, the consul Quinctius left Brundisium and sailed to Corcyra with 8,000 infantry and 800 cavalry. From Corcyra, the consul crossed over in a quinquereme to the nearest part of the coast of Epirus, and proceeded by forced marches to the Roman camp. There he waited a few days until his troops (the 8,000 infantry and 800 cavalry replacements), which were following him from Corcyra to join him. Polybius claims a quinquereme can carry 120 soldiers, which is the standard size for a consul’s guard cavalry during this period.
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(01-12-2021, 01:18 AM)Steven James Wrote: Can it be confirmed with certainty the distance between the main army and Suetonius was 250 miles? If Suetonius did make such a long journey with only his guard cavalry, it would not be the first time.

We don't know how far it was, since the entire episode is fictional.

Anglesey to London is about 250 miles. Wroxeter to London is about 150. But the point is that nowhere do we read that Suetonius Paulinus did such a thing - he marched to London with his troops, that's all. And the idea that he did not, but instead undertook some reckless mounted recon mission, is disproved by Tacitus's own estimate of the general's military reputation in later years: "he was naturally inclined to delay, and a man who preferred cautious and well-reasoned plans to chance success... thinking that it was soon enough to begin to conquer when they had made provision against defeat" (Histories, II.25).
Nathan Ross
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There are two aspects to this that seem to me to have received little or no attention.

First, if Suetonius had made a cavalry dash to London, having then decided that he did not have the forces to defend it, he would have been at pains to get back to his army as quickly as possible: a cavalry dash in reverse.  Yet, he offered the citizens of the town the opportunity to accompany him.  This might have been possible if they were to keep pace with infantry but not if they were having to keep up with fast-moving cavalry.  It would have been an empty gesture.

Secondly, we need to consider when he first heard of the revolt and what he knew about it.  The citizens of Colchester evidently had some warning of the threat to the colony, as they were able to get a request for help to Catus Decianus and he had time to cobble together his ill-equipped force and send it out.  Similarly, warning had clearly been sent to Petilius Cerialis in Lincoln.  It seems almost certain that a similar notification was sent to Suetonius.  I calculate that, with sufficient remounts and relief riders and some hard riding, word could have got to him within 24 hours.  His first instinct, then, would be to take troops to the relief of the colony.  This would inevitably been a much greater force than his bodyguard, i.e., the 14th Legion.  He would probably have been well on his way before news of the fall of Colchester and the defeat of Cerialis reached him and, as Nathan suggested above, he diverted to London.  Now having some idea of the extent of the danger, he would surely have taken his full force with him, particularly if he was thinking of making a stand there.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(01-12-2021, 12:15 PM)Renatus Wrote: There are two aspects to this that seem to me to have received little or no attention.

Little, perhaps, but not none. We've mentioned and discussed both points here before, although many years ago - and it's good to reiterate things for the benefit of anyone who does not care to read through the entire thread!

But yes, it is only Tacitus's dramatic narrative presentation, I think, that gives the misleading impression that Paulinus did not hear about the uprising until after the siege of Colchester had already commenced. In reality he could have been informed very soon after Boudicca first began mustering her forces, and begun his march soon afterwards, which removes any necessity for explaining the apparent speed of his movement down to London.


(01-12-2021, 12:15 PM)Renatus Wrote: warning had clearly been sent to Petilius Cerialis in Lincoln.

Incidentally, I don't think we know that Ceralis started from Lincoln (or Longthorpe), do we? Nothing in our sources says that he was not (for example) simply leading the vanguard detachment of Suetonius Paulinus's troops, and decided to hurry on ahead when he heard about the siege of Colchester. Either option is perfectly possible.
Nathan Ross
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(01-12-2021, 12:53 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Little, perhaps, but not none. We've mentioned and discussed both points here before, although many years ago - and it's good to reiterate things for the benefit of anyone who does not care to read through the entire thread!

My memory must be failing me!  I remember myself suggesting that Suetonius set out initially to relieve Colchester, intending to rendezvous with Cerialis in the vicinity of Godmanchester.  However, I don't remember the impracticality of civilians being expected to keep up with a fast-moving column of cavalry being discussed.


(01-12-2021, 12:53 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: But yes, it is only Tacitus's dramatic narrative presentation, I think, that gives the misleading impression that Paulinus did not hear about the uprising until after the siege of Colchester had already commenced.

I see what you mean, although I had not read it quite that way.  I saw Suetonius being informed of the uprising and then Tacitus explaining the reason for it and recounting its progress up to the defeat of Cerialis.  He then continues the narrative with Suetonius proceeding to London but not placing that immediately after his having learned of the crisis.


(01-12-2021, 12:53 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: In reality he could have been informed very soon after Boudicca first began mustering her forces, and begun his march soon afterwards, which removes any necessity for explaining the apparent speed of his movement down to London.

Indeed.  That was what I was trying to convey.


(01-12-2021, 12:53 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Incidentally, I don't think we know that Ceralis started from Lincoln (or Longthorpe), do we? Nothing in our sources says that he was not (for example) simply leading the vanguard detachment of Suetonius Paulinus's troops, and decided to hurry on ahead when he heard about the siege of Colchester. Either option is perfectly possible.

If I am right in thinking that the Second, Fourteenth and Twentieth Legions were all involved in the Anglesey campaign, with their veterans being left guarding their base fortresses, having the Ninth (even if only a part of it) there as well looks a bit like overkill.  At risk of introducing another factoid into this discussion, I see the Ninth being divided, with the greater part with the legionary commander at Lincoln and a smaller contingent being outposted at Longthorpe.  On hearing of the emergency, Cerialis hurried to Longthorpe to take command there, leaving the main part of the legion at Lincoln and ultimately leading the Longthorpe contingent to Colchester.  This would explain why only 2000 men were required to bring the Ninth up to strength after the revolt.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(01-12-2021, 05:50 PM)Renatus Wrote: My memory must be failing me!

Or perhaps mine is!... I certainly remember some discussion of the civilians issue, although finding anything in this monstrous thread gets quite difficult... The thing about Paulinus being warned in advance I factored into some proposed chronology or other many years ago, and I think we discussed it then.

(01-12-2021, 05:50 PM)Renatus Wrote: I see what you mean, although I had not read it quite that way.

It's been some time since I revisited Tacitus. But this seems a good opportunity for a recap...

So, Annals Book 14, 30-31: Suetonius Paulinus completes his conquest of Anglesey. "A force was next set over the conquered, and their groves... were destroyed. Suetonius while thus occupied received tidings of the sudden revolt of the province." (haec agenti Suetonio repentina defectio provinciae nuntiatur)

So the Anglesey campaign is already over (as Dio also points out). But what are these 'tidings'?

The next section (14.31) skips back in time to describe events from the death of Prasutagus to the Iceni 'flying to arms' and planning their attack on Colchester.

Next (14.32) we have the omens at Colchester. The veteran settlers "as Suetonius was far away... implored aid from the procurator, Catus Decianus", who sends 200 men.

As I'm sure we've mentioned, Catus Decianus would have been a very stupid subordinate not to have passed this message on to his boss. This, then, would have been the 'tidings' that Paulinus received only a few days later at Anglesey.

Only then do we have the attack on Colchester and the fall of the Temple of Claudius after three days. "The victorious enemy [then] met Petilius Cerialis, commander of the ninth legion, as he was coming to the rescue, routed his troops, and destroyed all his infantry. Cerialis escaped with some cavalry into the camp, and was saved by its fortifications."

Only in the following section (14.33) do we return to Paulinus: "Suetonius, however, with wonderful resolution, marched [or just 'went'] amidst a hostile population to Londinium" (At Suetonius mira constantia medios inter hostes Londinium perrexit).

At first reading this might suggest that Suetonius Pauilinus did not act until after the fall of Colchester, or even the defeat of Cerialis, which would leave him insufficent time to get to London ahead of the rebels. But I think instead that Tacitus is just writing dramatically - Suetonius was marching on London (or indeed on Colchester) while the preceding action was taking place, but there was no need for T to stress that. Paulinus reached London after Cerialis's defeat, but must have left Anglesey some considerable time beforehand.

Reading it like this, we are freed of the need to explain his miraculously speedy march, and to invent galloping recce missions. We are also, of course, freed of the assumption that Cerialis must have been operating completely independently of Suetonius.


(01-12-2021, 05:50 PM)Renatus Wrote: At risk of introducing another factoid into this discussion, I see the Ninth being divided, with the greater part with the legionary commander at Lincoln and a smaller contingent being outposted at Longthorpe.

Maybe, yes. Do we know that Lincoln was occupied at this time? I would think it just as likely that the governor would use detachments of all the legions at his disposal, but we don't know enough about troop dispositions or numbers to be sure.
Nathan Ross
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(01-12-2021, 09:44 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: The thing about Paulinus being warned in advance I factored into some proposed chronology or other many years ago, and I think we discussed it then.

Your proposed chronology is on p.5 of this thread.  I quoted from it with a comment on p.25 and used it as the basis for my revised chronology on p.26.  Of course, opinions have changed since then.

There seem to be two factors in working out when Suetonius might have been warned of the emergency.  First, when the colonists in Colchester first became aware of the danger and, secondly, Cerialis' response to being informed of it (I still see him being in the east, not forming part of Suetonius' campaigning force).  As to the first, this might have been when they realised that the Iceni were on the march and coming in their direction or earlier when they became aware that Boudica was stirring the tribes up for revolt and anticipated that they would be the first target.  In either case, I see the commander of the small military force in the colony sending out riders to seek aid from all potential sources, Catus in London, Cerialis in Lincoln and Suetonius in North Wales, each of whom reacted in their different ways.

As to the second, Cerialis may have set out immediately to nip the revolt in the bud but, nevertheless, reached the region of Colchester too late.  This would indicate a very short warning period.  Alternatively, he might have proceeded to Longthorpe to await Suetonius and his force, to the intent that they should advance together to defend the colony and quell the revolt.  In the event, he realised that the situation had become critical and that Suetonius would not arrive in time.  He, therefore, set off with just his part-legion but still too late.  Nevertheless, this would suggest a longer period for Suetonius to receive warning and to advance to the relief of the colony.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(01-13-2021, 06:15 PM)Renatus Wrote: I see the commander of the small military force in the colony sending out riders to seek aid... Cerialis may have set out immediately to nip the revolt in the bud

Possibly, yes, although all of this has to go in the 'things we don't know' pile!

Tacitus only mentions the colonists informing Catus Decianus. Presumably he would then have informed Paulinus, and perhaps Cerialis too if he was elsewhere. There might have been a chain of command problem with the colonists writing to Cerialis directly? Would Cerialis even have been able to act without orders from Paulinus?

T later stresses 'with what a serious warning the rashness (temeritas) of Petilius had been punished', which implies he was acting on his own initiative. But this might just mean he pressed on too fast with the vanguard and left himself without support, or failed to take proper precautions when advancing into enemy territory. (Or, of course, Tacitus could simply be developing his implied link between Suetonius Paulinus and Fabius Maximus 'Cunctator', with Cerialis cast in the role of Minucius...)

As for Lincoln - it seems the current thinking is that it was already a legion base by c.AD61. Although, like so much we've been discussing, the dispositions and strengths of various legions at the time of the revolt are still very cloudy!
Nathan Ross
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(01-13-2021, 08:33 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Tacitus only mentions the colonists informing Catus Decianus. Presumably he would then have informed Paulinus, and perhaps Cerialis too if he was elsewhere. There might have been a chain of command problem with the colonists writing to Cerialis directly? Would Cerialis even have been able to act without orders from Paulinus?

I really don't see Cerialis being with Suetonius.  As we have repeatedly said, Suetonius was a cautious general and he would probably have wanted to attack Anglesey with overwhelming force but to do so with virtually the whole legionary garrison of the province seems a bit much, even for him.  In fact, his caution could militate against this for two reasons.  First, he might wish to keep a legion in the east to keep an eye on the unconquered northern tribes who might be tempted to cause trouble while he was far away in the west.  Secondly, we do not know when Prasutagus died or how long it took for his territories to be annexed or for Boudica to foment her revolt but these things did not happen overnight and Suetonius may have known that the annexation had taken place or was pending before setting out on his campaign.  In either case, while not expecting a full-blown revolt, he might have anticipated the possibility of some resistance, in which case he would probably have wanted to leave Cerialis and his legion on hand to deal with it.

I see no problem with the colonists or the commander of the small military force that Tacitus speaks of on their behalf contacting Cerialis direct.  When your colony is threatened by a horde of vengeful barbarians intent on destroying it, chain of command is probably the last thing on your mind.  If you prefer that Catus be contacted first and that he relayed the message to Suetonius and Cerialis, I see no particular difficulty with that.  Provided that he acted promptly, it would only take a few hours longer for Suetonius to receive the message than if he were contacted direct.

There is certainly no problem with Cerialis acting without orders.  If he had sat back and allowed the colony to be destroyed simply because he was waiting for orders from Suetonius, he could expect little sympathy in  Rome.  In any event, from what we know of Cerialis, it would be entirely in character for him to act on his own initiative.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(01-14-2021, 01:08 PM)Renatus Wrote: In any event, from what we know of Cerialis, it would be entirely in character for him to act on his own initiative.


Very likely, yes.

However, this is neverthless one of several elements that rest on assumption rather than evidence, but which have been absorbed into the popular narrative almost without question. While it's considerably more plausible than the debunked 'cavalry dash' theory, we should always keep in mind that we might just have it all wrong!
Nathan Ross
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