02-15-2018, 06:32 PM
Nathan wrote:
I think open valleys are exactly what we're looking for. The translation 'defile' is confusing - the word Tacitus uses means 'throat' - so it's an open pass or through-way between hills, 'closed' in the rear by woods, not by high ground. It is not a closed valley or an indentation in an escarpment.
Thanks for the clarification..... OK no closed valley
........my issue is not with the "open valley" in general but with the "open valleys" that are open to attack from both sides simultaneously because there is easy access by the Brythons, if you are talking about more than one tribe (which we possibly are) coming from different directions.
Nathan wrote:
Again - there is no 'rampart'!
OK - no rampart then either
Nathan wrote:
As I've said before: angustias loci pro munimento retinens means 'kept to the narrowness of the place as a defence'. It's narrowness we're after, not steepness and certainly not ramparts.
OK....definitely no ramparts but how do you define "narrowness" , surely this must be defined and what is the parameter that makes something narrow.
Steve seems to judge narrowness at about 750 metres to 1200 metres (a metre being the width of a man) but then what defines the narrowness that forces people along between something that is too steep to walk along and how high is this?
Nathan wrote:
It's certainly an attractive site, with some nice long 'throat'-like defiles. But it would seem to make more sense if the Britons were coming from the south-east, advancing from the Thames valley after plundering the area west of London up to Staines and Windsor, perhaps. The problem here is the Wye valley - the battle would happen around modern High Wycombe, which looks quite watery!
Glad you like the site
Agree that if the Brythons were coming up from the South East from Hedsor Wharf it doesn't work....but......
Again this is all about timing but the scenario that I was looking at is as follows:
1. SP leaves London with the refugees after burning the warehouses and the bridge (if there was one)
2. SP arrives at Verulamium with his refugees
3. The Brythons arrive in London and raze it to the ground
4. SP re-stocks and moves out along Akeman Street with the London and Verulamium refugees and sets fire to the warehouses
5. The Brythons from London follow him up Watling Street (why would they bother to go farther West at this time?)
6. SP gets to Tring and waits for re-inforcements from the local stations
7. The Brythons get to Verulamium and then rather than go to Dunstable or Braughing or Silchester head towards Tring along Akeman Street.
8. SP's scouts report to him that the Brythons are not dispersing but are coming his way.
9. He moves out towards Alchester but there is no cover and he is not sure about the Midland tribes
10. SP Heads West down the Lower Icknield Way for the quickest way to Silchester and to avoid any Brythons from the at North, from the East down the Icknield but then decides that he has no option but to fight and chooses to fight at West Wycombe with the whole of the Brythonic army opposed to him.
11. The combined forces of Brythons from the London raid, the East and from the North descend on the gap at Princes Risborough because to the south of the Thames at the other end the natives are roman friendly.
Then virtually everything else works........
Nathan wrote:
Having the Britons approaching from the north-west - the direction of Saunderton - gives a drier battlefield, but I'm not convinced that both sides would have manoeuvred around the Chilterns so they were effectively facing in the other direction to when they started. Paulinus's 'delay' (as I mentioned above) I take to be a period of static waiting, not a series of strategic movements - and I doubt the Britons would have 'chased' him all that way either!
I think that going down the Upper Icknield to where SP was near Saunderton would only have been about 12 miles and this would have been the last cast of the dice. Regarding them facing it each other - all the Brythons had to do was follow him....
Nathan wrote:
But if both sides did end up in this vicinity, moving south-west along the far side of the Chilterns, then I would think that the valley south of Wendover, between Chivery and Dunsmore, would present a more immediate choice of location for Paulinus
That valley would take them back to danger and not safety.......
I think open valleys are exactly what we're looking for. The translation 'defile' is confusing - the word Tacitus uses means 'throat' - so it's an open pass or through-way between hills, 'closed' in the rear by woods, not by high ground. It is not a closed valley or an indentation in an escarpment.
Thanks for the clarification..... OK no closed valley
........my issue is not with the "open valley" in general but with the "open valleys" that are open to attack from both sides simultaneously because there is easy access by the Brythons, if you are talking about more than one tribe (which we possibly are) coming from different directions.Nathan wrote:
Again - there is no 'rampart'!
OK - no rampart then either
Nathan wrote:
As I've said before: angustias loci pro munimento retinens means 'kept to the narrowness of the place as a defence'. It's narrowness we're after, not steepness and certainly not ramparts.
OK....definitely no ramparts
but how do you define "narrowness" , surely this must be defined and what is the parameter that makes something narrow. Steve seems to judge narrowness at about 750 metres to 1200 metres (a metre being the width of a man) but then what defines the narrowness that forces people along between something that is too steep to walk along and how high is this?
Nathan wrote:
It's certainly an attractive site, with some nice long 'throat'-like defiles. But it would seem to make more sense if the Britons were coming from the south-east, advancing from the Thames valley after plundering the area west of London up to Staines and Windsor, perhaps. The problem here is the Wye valley - the battle would happen around modern High Wycombe, which looks quite watery!
Glad you like the site
Agree that if the Brythons were coming up from the South East from Hedsor Wharf it doesn't work....but......
Again this is all about timing but the scenario that I was looking at is as follows:
1. SP leaves London with the refugees after burning the warehouses and the bridge (if there was one)
2. SP arrives at Verulamium with his refugees
3. The Brythons arrive in London and raze it to the ground
4. SP re-stocks and moves out along Akeman Street with the London and Verulamium refugees and sets fire to the warehouses
5. The Brythons from London follow him up Watling Street (why would they bother to go farther West at this time?)
6. SP gets to Tring and waits for re-inforcements from the local stations
7. The Brythons get to Verulamium and then rather than go to Dunstable or Braughing or Silchester head towards Tring along Akeman Street.
8. SP's scouts report to him that the Brythons are not dispersing but are coming his way.
9. He moves out towards Alchester but there is no cover and he is not sure about the Midland tribes
10. SP Heads West down the Lower Icknield Way for the quickest way to Silchester and to avoid any Brythons from the at North, from the East down the Icknield but then decides that he has no option but to fight and chooses to fight at West Wycombe with the whole of the Brythonic army opposed to him.
11. The combined forces of Brythons from the London raid, the East and from the North descend on the gap at Princes Risborough because to the south of the Thames at the other end the natives are roman friendly.
Then virtually everything else works........
Nathan wrote:
Having the Britons approaching from the north-west - the direction of Saunderton - gives a drier battlefield, but I'm not convinced that both sides would have manoeuvred around the Chilterns so they were effectively facing in the other direction to when they started. Paulinus's 'delay' (as I mentioned above) I take to be a period of static waiting, not a series of strategic movements - and I doubt the Britons would have 'chased' him all that way either!
I think that going down the Upper Icknield to where SP was near Saunderton would only have been about 12 miles and this would have been the last cast of the dice. Regarding them facing it each other - all the Brythons had to do was follow him....
Nathan wrote:
But if both sides did end up in this vicinity, moving south-west along the far side of the Chilterns, then I would think that the valley south of Wendover, between Chivery and Dunsmore, would present a more immediate choice of location for Paulinus
That valley would take them back to danger and not safety.......
Deryk
