08-15-2013, 06:57 PM
Hi Renatus
There are many points that we can agree on and of course everything is in the interpretation
I admit that I am being speculative when indicating that Tacitus had chosen a place to defend when he was in London but having said that I would have thought that as the Governor of Britannia he would have a good understanding of the topography of the land and be prepared for setbacks.
I am not convinced that the Brythons had their families with them – Tacitus does not mention children at all only the wives and of course this reflects the battle on Anglesey where women are mentioned in the ranks of the Brythons by Tacitus
SP would probably move at 15 miles per day with the refugees but the oxen (if they were present) would slow down the Brythons to about 5 miles per day.
If SP left London a couple of days before the Brythons arrived he would have arrived at Verulamium in less than two days (20 miles) whilst the Brythons were attacking London. If we allow 2 days for the battle and sacking of London SP could have been in Bicester by the time the Brythons were leaving London.
The Brythons if they were travelling with oxen would have taken a further 4 days to reach St Albans or 6 days to reach Tring.
In effect SP could have been in Gloucester (a further 80 miles), even travelling at 15 miles per day taking into account the refugees.
The interesting point is that he didn’t do so
It would make sense that if SP evacuated London he would do the same for the people of Verulamium who were protected by Roman Law. It would also make sense to empty Verulamium of any food or weaponry, partly to deny the Brythons but also to feed the people he had with him.
The hills at Tring offer an excellent place to re-group and defend and it is a place that could contain many of thousands of people easily. From here SP could attack the Iceni up the Icknield Way, get reinforcements from the West or North or retire.
If the Iceni and the Trinovantes were heading for home you would think that they would have left London via Braughing and Chelmsford respectively but if after two days of sacking London they left along Watling Street it would have been obvious that they were either, as you say, going to destroy the last Roman town in the South East (Verulamium) or pursuing SP (although they would have no chance of catching him if they were travelling with oxen).
In either case SP obviously made the choice to prepare for battle at a place of his choosing whatever the reason.
At the very least he would have had four days to prepare for battle and possibly 8 days which would have been plenty of time to create a massive defence.
It would also allow time for extra troops to reach him from Cirencester or Gloucester (perhaps the veterans of the XXth and two Cohors of Cavalry the first Wing of the Thracians and the Indus Wing of the Gauls - I know its controversial) plus local auxiliary troops from stations along Akeman Street and Watling Street.
The important issue here is that the site at Tring is feasible for a Londonium / Verulamium attack.
Interestingly if we take John’s proposal that the Iceni marched along a natural “old highway” the Icknield Way is known to have been there and used to cross the country. Church Stowe and Tring are both about 75 miles from Thetford.
So the Tring site would appear to cover two theories.
The Tring site works for the Dunstable theory as well (Dunstable is only a few miles away along the Icnield Way) but is far more defendable than Dunstable
[attachment=7788]Tringpics3.pdf[/attachment]
Kind Regards - Deryk
There are many points that we can agree on and of course everything is in the interpretation
I admit that I am being speculative when indicating that Tacitus had chosen a place to defend when he was in London but having said that I would have thought that as the Governor of Britannia he would have a good understanding of the topography of the land and be prepared for setbacks.
I am not convinced that the Brythons had their families with them – Tacitus does not mention children at all only the wives and of course this reflects the battle on Anglesey where women are mentioned in the ranks of the Brythons by Tacitus
SP would probably move at 15 miles per day with the refugees but the oxen (if they were present) would slow down the Brythons to about 5 miles per day.
If SP left London a couple of days before the Brythons arrived he would have arrived at Verulamium in less than two days (20 miles) whilst the Brythons were attacking London. If we allow 2 days for the battle and sacking of London SP could have been in Bicester by the time the Brythons were leaving London.
The Brythons if they were travelling with oxen would have taken a further 4 days to reach St Albans or 6 days to reach Tring.
In effect SP could have been in Gloucester (a further 80 miles), even travelling at 15 miles per day taking into account the refugees.
The interesting point is that he didn’t do so
It would make sense that if SP evacuated London he would do the same for the people of Verulamium who were protected by Roman Law. It would also make sense to empty Verulamium of any food or weaponry, partly to deny the Brythons but also to feed the people he had with him.
The hills at Tring offer an excellent place to re-group and defend and it is a place that could contain many of thousands of people easily. From here SP could attack the Iceni up the Icknield Way, get reinforcements from the West or North or retire.
If the Iceni and the Trinovantes were heading for home you would think that they would have left London via Braughing and Chelmsford respectively but if after two days of sacking London they left along Watling Street it would have been obvious that they were either, as you say, going to destroy the last Roman town in the South East (Verulamium) or pursuing SP (although they would have no chance of catching him if they were travelling with oxen).
In either case SP obviously made the choice to prepare for battle at a place of his choosing whatever the reason.
At the very least he would have had four days to prepare for battle and possibly 8 days which would have been plenty of time to create a massive defence.
It would also allow time for extra troops to reach him from Cirencester or Gloucester (perhaps the veterans of the XXth and two Cohors of Cavalry the first Wing of the Thracians and the Indus Wing of the Gauls - I know its controversial) plus local auxiliary troops from stations along Akeman Street and Watling Street.
The important issue here is that the site at Tring is feasible for a Londonium / Verulamium attack.
Interestingly if we take John’s proposal that the Iceni marched along a natural “old highway” the Icknield Way is known to have been there and used to cross the country. Church Stowe and Tring are both about 75 miles from Thetford.
So the Tring site would appear to cover two theories.
The Tring site works for the Dunstable theory as well (Dunstable is only a few miles away along the Icnield Way) but is far more defendable than Dunstable
[attachment=7788]Tringpics3.pdf[/attachment]
Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
