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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Not withstanding the body disposal method, if any coins had been present they might have survived in place for many years. So I was wondering if any clusters of small value coins , not hoards, have been found.
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Nathan wrote:
 
Both nice looking sites, although neither look like the sort of 'throat shaped' valley that I think we're looking for. But that's open to interpretation, as are so many things about this topic!
 
As you have said there are very few narrow valleys that fit the "throat" description and the dimensions needed without a river running through it and protected at the rear. 

In the area outside St Albans there are a number of valleys that look promising including the Bulbourne and the Gade but I have a preference for side valleys off the main ones  (Aldbury, Hastoe, Ivinghoe) but using the "throat" criteria (as we understand it) even they don't have an exact fit(which of course could be incorrect)
 
Having looked further along the Gade Valley there is another side valley at Frithsden that seems to reflect Tacitus' description of the "throat", also the hills from where the "wives" could watch,  also the natural blocking of the exits by the wagons near the small stream that becomes the river Gade.
 
The position for the Roman Army is at the end of a valley but is raised so that it allows for the protection of the valley and also allows for a downhill charge onto the plain.
 
To see if the valley is large enough to house the Roman Army, I have tried to use valid measurements (a cohort is 60 metres wide by 8 meters deep and the horse is grouped in units 20 meters wide by 15 meters deep)
 
I have used the approximate numbers and troops that Nathan has proposed and married them with the specifications of the 480 men in a cohort (60 men by 8 rows) and placed 2 cohorts deep to reflect the description which gives a line of men 16 rows deep
 
I have also placed the cohorts in serried ranks which allows for the wedge charge. 

The veterans are placed behind the external auxiliaries and the cavalry on the extreme wings (512 on each wing) -  all the horse are grouped into 30 horses.
 
The 120 cavalry are with SP and his command and the 360 horse from the Equitates are placed behind the infantry as re-inforcement.

The Roman Camp is in the valley behind the Army.
 
This is all surmise of course but it may be worth discussion…….



.pdf   FRITHSDEN Army Numbers.pdf (Size: 220.09 KB / Downloads: 19)


.pdf   FRITHSDEN.pdf (Size: 1.41 MB / Downloads: 17)
Deryk
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Does anyone know when the term "Battle of Watling Street" was first coined and by whom? I've known the event by that name forever but can't track down the first use.
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(11-05-2018, 09:27 PM)John1 Wrote: Does anyone know when the term "Battle of Watling Street" was first coined and by whom?

That's an interesting question!

I did a quick search on Google Books, and the phrase itself seems to appear first in Guy de la Bedoyere's 2003 Defying Rome - however, the preview snippet doesn't show the bit in question, so it's hard to check.

Joel Levy's Lost Histories of 2006 is the earliest to show the full phrase in a preview.

However, interestingly enough it seems that the exact phrase was in use as early as 1979 to describe some sort of stock market panic! This would suggest that it was used before that to refer to something else - probably the Boudicca battle, maybe in common vernacular...

(*quick search on the Times online archive turns up a couple of mentions of the 1979 financial thing - maybe that was the actual source of the phrase after all? - and a first usage in the Boudiccan sense dating from 2011 - the Steve Punt radio programme!)

The suggestion that the battle happened on or near Watling Street is much older though - Charles Oman's A History of England before the Norman Conquest of 1910 cites Professor Francis Haverfield's suggestion that 'we must suppose the battle to have taken place somewhere along the line London-Wroxeter (Watling Street) on which the troops must have been moving" - this is the same Haverfield who came up with the 'cavalry dash' theory, of course.
Nathan Ross
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Well I couldn't find Webster using the term in 1962. Shepherd Frere 1968 doesn't use it although he puts forward two sites, both on Watling St. One being Mancetter by Webster, another being "North West of Towcester" sounds like Church Stowe to me...... but I can't find any more detailed references. Jones and Matless Atlas 1990 doesn't use the term but has a campaign map that happens to site the IX bump pretty much on Bartlow and the main action on ..... Church Stowe.... still no earliest ref confirmed.


435129
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(11-11-2018, 06:37 PM)John1 Wrote: still no earliest ref confirmed.

Depends what you're looking for, doesn't it? All the sources you just mentioned have a battle on or near Watling Street. This goes back to Haverfield, who put the battle somewhere on Watling Street, c.1910.

Nicholas Fuentes, in his 1983 paper on Virginia Water, says (p.312) that "most commentators suggest... he defeated the rebels somewhere along Watling Street" - his reference is 'E.g. Frere, Morris, Scullard and Webster; Salway to a lesser extent'.

It does seem that the actual phrase Battle of Watling Street is quite recent, 21st century - perhaps it's taken that long to creep into popular thinking? Although, as I said above, it was used in the late 70s to refer to a stock market panic.

I would still be interested to know whether the panic was named after the supposed battle, or vice versa...
Nathan Ross
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Maybe the office involved in the 70's was on that section of Watling St between the Bloomburg arcade and St Pauls, could be that simple.

Maybe it was this 2003 episode of Time Commanders what done it, BBC, Eddie Mair, Ari Nusbacher and Mike Loades all respected purveyors of reason, all using the term as if it were common parlance;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MQ8gIxBj4Y
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(11-11-2018, 10:19 PM)John1 Wrote: this 2003 episode of Time Commanders

Aha, good find! So that's two mentions of the phrase so far, both from 2003... This episode apparently went out in September, though, so de Bedoyere's book (if it really does contain the wording) must predate it.

As for the stock market thing - yes, you're surely right about the location. Although it does sound as if the stockbrokers were jokily adopting a name already well-known from elsewhere...

Michael Wood's BBC 'In Search of Boudicca' from 1980 just goes for Mancetter as the site - but he mentions Watling Street a lot....
Nathan Ross
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(11-11-2018, 11:45 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: This episode apparently went out in September, though, so de Bedoyere's book (if it really does contain the wording) must predate it.

Apparently, it's in my local library, so I'll have a look.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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De la Bedoyere does not use the expression. Nor does he offer a location for the battle, saying only, 'The only logical route for Suetonius Paullinus to withdraw along was Watling Street, but this does not mean that it is the only possibility.' He appears to subscribe to the 'cavalry dash' theory, saying that Paullinus was probably on horseback with a small unit of cavalry,while the infantry were coming up slowly from North Wales 'perhaps' along Watling Street.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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So Time Commanders it is...... BBC PR type recalled the name from previously doing PR for financial house in the City in the 1970's..... certainly worked as the name has stuck very well. Now to find who coined the term at Time Commanders... Sophia Roberts "Battle Researcher"?

Nathan the link you published to the financial stuff took me to the preface of the 2010 edition, is this the only ref you have? If so it's compromised as a 2010 preface could well have picked up on the 2003 ref.
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(11-12-2018, 09:07 PM)John1 Wrote: BBC PR type recalled the name from previously doing PR for financial house in the City in the 1970's.....

That could very well be the truth!


(11-12-2018, 09:07 PM)John1 Wrote: is this the only ref you have?

No, it was mentioned shortly afterwards; here's Investors Chronicle from 1980, and some sort of Financial Handbook from 1989, and a book about the Bank of England. Funny that no source I've found so far seems to mention why it was called that, and whether it was intended as a reference to the Boudica battle.
Nathan Ross
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This is all very interesting. I could have sworn that I heard/seen the "Battle of Watling Street" mentioned in the 90s early 2000s - before Time Commanders, however, reading what has been posted, that doesn't seem to be the case Smile

Did the BBC programme 'What If' by Carenza Lewis in 2000 perhaps mention it? Time Team?
Neil Ritchie
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I can't find "What If" and it's before my time so that's a maybe for 2000.

There is a proto Time Team from 1988 in which Tony Robinson and celebrity assistant dissect the campaign and  "Battle of Watling Street" does not warrant a mention so this might be a backstop;

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuvMydxzFDE

I wasn't able to go through the whole thing with a deep concentration level so maybe it's in there somewhere....

437 299
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(11-22-2018, 10:13 AM)John1 Wrote: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuvMydxzFDE

Jeez, how incredibly weird. It looks like something from the early days of television... and then they start 'rapping' [Image: shocked.png]

But no, I don't think they mention the name.



(11-22-2018, 10:13 AM)Legate Wrote: I could have sworn that I heard/seen the "Battle of Watling Street" mentioned in the 90s early 2000s

Maybe. Although perhaps that actual 'title' didn't gain currency until everyone started discussing it on the internet in the early 21st century, perhaps on forums like this one...
Nathan Ross
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