Modern Drunkard Article on the Fifth Legion

[Apollyon]

I happened across this article and was curious as to how well the author had done his homework.

[Simplex]

Slightly O.T.: :wink:
Well one of my friends used to tell me that the Rheingau area (Germany, around and NNW-W of Wiesbaden) was most likely so well-researched (in terms of archeology) in the 19th century because of its good wines. BTW: Queen Victoria was reported to have said similar things like: Every day a glass of Hock keeps away the doc.(Referring to Hochheim/Main, which is in this area) These scholars and excavators seemed to have tried to stay VERY healthy there, rest assured. 8)

Greez

Simplex

[Jona Lendering]

I happened across this article and was curious as to how well the author had done his homework.

I am right now in Isfahan; the link is apparently blocked by the censor.

????? ?????
?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????
?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??????????
[email protected]
?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ? ????? ??????? ????
?????? ???????

This surprises me; the Roman army is not a topic that would scare the Iranian censor. :roll:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Possibly just a blanket filter? My company blocks the strangest of sites, but allows access to others.

[Sardaukar]

Well..site address features both words "drunkard" and "wine", neither very popular in strict Islamic nation like Iran... :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ah, of course....very good point, Mika! I'll borrow your latin name for my post! :oops:

[Simplex]

Hello,
just in case some of you might like to know what the iranian lines above would mean ...
Being a curious little bastard sometimes i went on to ask one of my elder coleagues ( Iranian by birth, exiled since Khomeini's times).
He said it would roughly translate this way (very roughly to be precise, like he said, because he also mentioned that there were some iranian technical terms which were introduced way after he left) :
Dear member/estimated member
This site is not available.
In case this site should not be available because of filtering, please do contact: [email protected]

BTW: my guess for filters: "US- website" "drunkard" "legion"
Some more proposals ? :wink:

Greez

Simplex

[Jona Lendering]

Well..site address features both words "drunkard" and "wine", neither very popular in strict Islamic nation like Iran... :wink:

Quite the contrary. "Drunkard" and "wine" are extremely popular expressions in Islamic poetry. Omar Khayyam is a case in point (example). Of course it is a metaphor. The true believer is drunk with devotion.

Maybe it's time to return on topic?

[Narukami]

The side bar here is fascinating.

I would think the Iranians may be acting cautiously with an unknown US web site, or it may be due to a reason we will never fathom.

However...

Back to the topic -- is the above linked article more accurate or hyperbole when it comes to the history of the 5th Legion?

:?

Narukami

[Nathan Ross]

Back to the topic -- is the above linked article more accurate or hyperbole when it comes to the history of the 5th Legion?

Most of the details of the legion's history appear to be broadly accurate - the author has read Keppie or Ritterling, or perhaps more likely one of the various online glosses of the known history (Livius.org, perhaps? ). Most of the quotes would seem to be 'artistic license' though!

As for the drunken stuff - V Alaudae were Gauls, although probably from Transalpine Gaul rather than Gallia Comata, and so maybe not the 'Asterix' types the article's author seems to envisage! There's no actual evidence, AFAIK, for the fifth legion being particularly prone to drunkenness - and since being drunk on duty was punished very severely in the legions, it seems unlikely. The legions of the civil war era were often rather shambolic: mutiny was not uncommon, and perhaps the usual codes of conduct were suspended amidst the chaos, but as veteran troops in a well-maintained unit that survived into Augustan times, I wouldn't pick V Alaudae as the worst offenders on the discipline front. Some of the more ragtag 'legions' (of freed slaves and gladiators, apparently) raised by the competing factions in northern Italy after Mutina would seem more likely contenders for being the worst drunks in the Roman army!

Having said that, the fifth were clearly quite fond of Antony, and if the mores of the men reflected those of their commander there might be something in this drinking thing. Evidence for Antony's booziness comes mainly from Cicero, and should perhaps be taken with a bucket of salt, but stuff like this is fairly damning:

You [i.e. Antony] with those jaws of yours, and those sides of yours, and that strength of body suited to a gladiator, drank such quantities of wine at the marriage of Hippia, that you were forced to vomit the next day in the sight of the Roman people. O action disgraceful not merely to see, but even to hear of. If this had happened to you at supper amid those vast drinking cups of yours, who would not have thought it scandalous? But in an assembly of the Roman people, a man holding a public office, a master of the horse, to whom it would have been disgraceful even to belch, vomiting filled his own bosom and the whole tribunal with fragments of what he had been eating reeking with wine. But he himself confesses this among his other disgraceful acts. (Cicero: Second Oration against Marcus Antonius)

O tempora! O mores! etc... :wink:

Regards - Nathan

[Narukami]

Thanks Nathan.

Narukami

[Sardaukar]

Was Legio V Alaudae really from Transalpine Gaul? That would make it quite unorthodox legion indeed.

I think it might rather have been recruited from Cisalpine Gaul, but maybe from people whose Roman citizenship was in dispute (as it was that time).

[Nathan Ross]

Was Legio V Alaudae really from Transalpine Gaul? That would make it quite unorthodox legion indeed.

I think it might rather have been recruited from Cisalpine Gaul, but maybe from people whose Roman citizenship was in dispute (as it was that time).

They were actually from Transalpina - see Suetonius Caesar.24. They'd originally been raised as individual cohorts of non-citizen troops, but Caesar awarded them citizenship en masse and brought them into the regular army, probably shortly before Alesia. So they were unorthodox indeed!

Here's the article on the legion, from Ritterling:

[url:1oor3b8n]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/content/view/82/113/[/url]

- Nathan

[Sardaukar]

Was Legio V Alaudae really from Transalpine Gaul? That would make it quite unorthodox legion indeed.

I think it might rather have been recruited from Cisalpine Gaul, but maybe from people whose Roman citizenship was in dispute (as it was that time).

They were actually from Transalpina - see Suetonius Caesar.24. They'd originally been raised as individual cohorts of non-citizen troops, but Caesar awarded them citizenship en masse and brought them into the regular army, probably shortly before Alesia. So they were unorthodox indeed!

Here's the article on the legion, from Ritterling:

[url:119x3x54]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/content/view/82/113/[/url]

- Nathan

Ah, of course! Thanks!

Might be the influence of Colleen McCullough novels then, I enjoyed them.