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A Legionary of the Marcomannic Wars.
#31
Quote: I have allready done it: natural linen tunica,

If the army in Egypt was ordering wool tunics it is fairly safe to assume the army on the Northern frontier were doing the same! However you can keep your linen tunic as an undergarment.

I also think it is fairly safe to assume that a lot of wool tunics re-enactors use are too thick. fine wool would account for the drapery we see in sculptures of Roman clothing but also accounts for the mention of the various garments like under cloaks and over cloaks in the Vindolanda letters and the layers of tunics that could be worn.

The sagum cloak would appear to be more popular judging by Roman artistic sources but the caracalla supposedly invented by Caracalla was in all probability simply a longer version of the paenula. So that cloak or another version of it was probaly still in use amongst the Northern armies. Again you can also have an under subpaenula which once more suggests they were not bulky garments.

It was during this period that the appearance of the Roman army evolved from the classic short sleeved tunic and paenula or sagum cloaks into the long sleeved tunic and trousers with sagum cloak. It would be nice if we had some artistic confirmation of this, as otherwise the change appears rather sudden. I would imagine the reality was somewhat different and probably a mix of clothing was worn for example bracae, leg wrappings or bindings, even Thorsberg like trousers but this is exactly the sort of information we lack.

Graham.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#32
Graham wrote:
Quote:I also think it is fairly safe to assume that a lot of wool tunics re-enactors use are too thick. fine wool would account for the drapery we see in sculptures of Roman clothing but also accounts for the mention of the various garments like under cloaks and over cloaks in the Vindolanda letters and the layers of tunics that could be worn.
...just to add a specific instance to this. Seutonius ( Augustus 81) when talking of Augustus' illnesses tells us " In winter he wore no fewer than four tunics and a heavy wollen gown above his undershirt; and below that a woollen 'chest protector'; also underpants and woollen gaiters." ( a total of 7 layers). Assuming the tunics were also wool ( and even if they were not), they must have been very thin if Augustus was to avoid looking like the 'Michelin Man', and still be able to walk and move normally......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#33
Quote:Unfortunately I don't own Simon James' book on Dura yet. Its price tag is still well beyond my budget.

The original thesis which contains 95% of the information of the published book is available for free download here:

[url:1btbw6s3]http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did=2&uin=uk.bl.ethos.307734[/url]

You will find that the thesis also contains copies of several other interesting arcticles of Mr. James.
Regards,


Jens Horstkotte
Munich, Germany
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#34
Thank you very much Jens. I now have a very enjoyable couple of nights' reading ahead of me. Big Grin

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#35
I wonder if this is one of those rare moments when we can postulate linking a change in hardware/fashion to a particular campaign. eg. the cross-bracing with the Dacian campaign. Here perhaps the Marcomannic Wars in Germany might be that catalyst for an accepted change in soldier's clothing.

Quote:It was during this period that the appearance of the Roman army evolved ... into the long sleeved tunic and trousers with sagum cloak. It would be nice if we had some artistic confirmation of this, as otherwise the change appears rather sudden.
Graham.

Graham.
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#36
Crispus,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Quote:Unfortunately I don't own Simon James' book on Dura yet. Its price tag is still well beyond my budget. The only report I actually own on Dura is a copy of the report on the siege mines from the original final report series, published (if I recall correctly, off the top of my head) in the late 1960s. Therefore, I have not actually seen pictures of the plates you mention. If however they closely resemble ones in this image (again courtesy of Mike Bishop), then they will almost vertainly be pugio sheaths. http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig104.png

Ah, my apologies for throwing you a curve ball then. :oops: The plates don't actually look like they could fit into/on the frame type of late pugio scabbard. Let me take try to take a picture of the page from the Dura catalog (I'm at home these next 2 days and won't have access to the scanner at work) for you to take a look at. In the text, James says they were identified by Michael Bishop as scabbard fragments based on finds from Kastel Kapersberg, Zugmantel, Lauriacum, Kastel Feldberg and Thamsudia and especially as a parts of a "Gemellianus" type scabbard plate.

Quote:Other than the ones you mention, I am not aware of any other copper-alloy pugio sheaths of third century date, but given that some first century AD sheaths were of copper-alloy rather than the more common iron, and helmets could be of either iron or copper-alloy, I see no reason why there might not be copper-alloy sheaths of third century date. If, however the plates you mention are not sheaths as such but something which might be thought to have been attached to a sheath, I would have to say that I would be dubious as to the identification as parts of pugio sheaths.

Well, to my unexpert eye the pieces look like decorative rather than structural elements of scabbards.

Quote:I have seen many fragments of metal described in the past as plates form Roman dagger sheaths which were actually nothing of the sort. Unfortunately there is a widespread misconception that some first century AD dagger sheaths featured attached copper alloy plates, riveted to the iron sheath. This misconception (and all of the incorrect reconstructions which have arisen from it) is based on a mistaken interpretation of a line drawing of a silver inlaid iron sheath from Kempton about twenty years ago by Michael Simkins. So far I know of no evidence for these sheaths with applied copper-alloy plates. However, I have not had the chance to see Simon James' book so do you know if the plates you mention were associated with daggers or not. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the shape and context of the plates. If you could illustrate them that would be even better.

Yes, let me try to photograph it, I'll try to post something later today.

Quote:As to suspension, we simply do not know. I am not aware of any third century images of soldiers which show daggers being worn, yet they have been found in a number of third century AD contexts, notably Kunzing. As far as I am aware, no belt fittings from third century AD contexts resemble first century AD 'frog' plates. However second and early third century AD contexts have produced plates which have a ring cast into them, which may or may not be connected with weapons suspension. In the absence of good evidence for how these later pugios were carried, suspension on a baldric is as legitimate a solution as any other. As I said, none are shown being carried on third century images of soldiers so we do not have visual clues to guide us in the way we do for the soldiers of two centuries earlier.

I had been wonder about those small cast rings (especially on the E of the Felix Utere belt plate for example) and others that begin to appear about this time, whether they had anything to do with pugio suspension. I realize they could as easily be a purse hook as anything, but I do find it suggestive that they begin to appear as traditional pugio frogs have faded away.

Quote:A pugio is a dagger by the way, in answer to your question, although just to be confusing, in the later empire a number of other types of dagger came into use which do not resemble earlier pugios and are therefore not called pugios (by modern commentators at any rate).
Crispvs

Very true!Thank you again for your response about this and I will photograph those pages for you to take a look at.

Best,

Gaius
L.E. Pearson
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#37
Quote:...I also think it is fairly safe to assume that a lot of wool tunics re-enactors use are too thick. fine wool would account for the drapery we see in sculptures of Roman clothing but also accounts for the mention of the various garments like under cloaks and over cloaks in the Vindolanda letters and the layers of tunics that could be worn...
Graham.

Thank you so much for saying that, I've been of that opinion for years! I think we are so rich in the amount to cloth we have today but in reality, in terms of quality we are so very much poorer. Use of too heavy materials is, I think, not just an issue with Roman reenactment, its a problem across many time periods.

Best,

Gaius
L.E. Pearson
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#38
Isn't the ring on the 'UTERE' part? Which would put it underneath the spatha... not knocking the suggestion, though. Seems logical to me.

Quote:I had been wonder about those small cast rings (especially on the E of the Felix Utere belt plate for example) and others that begin to appear about this time, whether they had anything to do with pugio suspension. I realize they could as easily be a purse hook as anything, but I do find it suggestive that they begin to appear as traditional pugio frogs have faded away.

Gaius
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
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#39
Quote:Isn't the ring on the 'UTERE' part? Which would put it underneath the spatha... not knocking the suggestion, though. Seems logical to me.

Hi Paul,

You're probably right, my knowledge is somewhat better on later period things, 3rd century is rather a departure for me. I have to admit I haven't taken a look at the archaeological reports for the Lyon or Ljuben burials to see if there are diagrams of the positions of the belt fittings in situ, to see if they shed any light on where the looped E's are located. I'll have to scare up the references and look them up. I read thru this review http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=cla ... 147&lang=e of the Varazdinske Toplice burial but it was not the actual archaeological report and did not have diagrams of the elements in place. Likewise here http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350 ... 58155R.pdf but interesting reading nevertheless.

Best,

Gaius
L.E. Pearson
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#40
Paul wrote;
Quote:Isn't the ring on the 'UTERE' part? Which would put it underneath the spatha...

Yes Paul it is. Mike Bishop's drawing of the Lyon belt set can be found here..
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig101.png

Paul also wrote;
Quote:a nice buckle was found at Newstead dated to the Antonine period

There is also a find of a matching belt plate from Bulgaria which mirrors the Newstead buckle plate.. presumably it would go on the opposite end of the belt to make a matching pair when fastened.
[Image: 29624.jpg]

There are also a few variations of plates and fittings suitable for later 2nd C here..
[Image: mil-cingulum.jpg]
[Image: leon.jpg]
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#41
They are gorgeous, I really do prefer them to the belt plates of the 1stC and the simpler stud, ring fastenings of the 3rd...
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
Reply
#42
The top set of plates. Do you have any close ups? I've seen them somewhere before and like them but not had time to dig into them much.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#43
I found some decent photos of the Aurelian Column here:

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/rom ... column.htm

You'll have to save them to your desktop and enlarge them that way to see the detail. Some interesting observations (not considering any of its accuracy):

1) Legionaries all wear gaiters or greaves
2) All armed with shortswords on the right
3) There is a cylindrical or rectangular scutum, but most seem to be ovals.
4) All armour represented, segmentata, scale and chain.
5) One soldier (seen from the rear) is carrying a bag slung over his left shoulder.

As I said, I don't know how stylistic any of it is.
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
Reply
#44
A quick question regarding the pictures that Peronis posted: How were the belt buckles attached? I ask because I'm considering a 2nd cent. buckle offered by Gaulker Medieval Wares, and it doesn't come with a plate. The construction doesn't appear to be too dissimilar to the ones in the picture, especially the one in the bottom belt of the first picture, what I assume is an 'utere felix' belt. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how these buckles would be attached to the belt.

Thanks,

Adam Oswalt
Adam Oswalt

[url:30lkyohr]http://www.harja150ad.livejournal.com[/url]
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#45
Hi, they will have studs at the back which can be pushed through a hole in the leather, then carefully 'peened' to rivet them and secure them against the back of the leather.
Paul Elliott

Legions in Crisis
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/17815...d_i=468294

Charting the Third Century military crisis - with a focus on the change in weapons and tactics.
Reply


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