Kalkriese Segmentata: A new interpretation of the Evidence?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

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[Gaius Julius Caesar]

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I wonder seeing this plate if perhaps the other shoulder plates do not follow the same curvature, similar to the idea of the ones we see on the columns?

[mcbishop]

Wow, 80 downloads, but no comments......obviously no one is that interested in a discussion?
Perhaps there was no need to share the info after all?

The new plate is certainly very interesting and suggests new interpretations for some odd pieces like those illustrated by Matt but I'm afraid it only makes the whole defence look less like a Corbridge type - and that makes the new reconstruction appear like Kalkriese bits bolted onto a standard Corbridge cuirass! I am still unconvinced by tie-hooks for the girth plates (unless they finally have some definitive evidence for their existence this early) and puzzled why Aurificina Treverica opted for not using the Kalkriese breastplate (with straps riveted directly to the plate), which is one of the most striking things about the Kalkriese type and, I would have thought, a USP (one which Daniyal also eschewed, despite the accuracy rating of 9.75 - perhaps the 0.25 was for not using the actual plate found!). Interestingly, looking at AT's earlier attempt at a Kalkriese type signals many of the decisions they have taken (like the bizarre upper shoulderguard centre plate with the point on the outside - a Corbridge cut'n'shut feature projected backwards in time!).

Like the Newstead type, it may take many years of drip-drip-drip of new finds to finally arrive at a reconstruction in which we can have any confidence. Making judgements on unpublished pieces is hard and it is always much easier to actually look at the items themselves, as there is so much that drawings and even photos cannot convey (not least all the fragments of lorica seg that may have gone unrecognised in the assemblage).

Mike Bishop

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I'm sure even Erik would say this is the definitve version either, and I might have even offer up even more radical
interpretations, if it was me doing this work.....(I have mentioned this myself a few times already in the thread),based on the available evidence I was given, and using sculptural depictions to fill in the gaps.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I've read it suggested the triangular piece might be a Kalkriese girth hoop fragment, but the rivets mid-body also left me finding this difficult to accept- and that's easier than seeing it as a section of shoulder guard.

To me the second image adds to my mind the posibility there could have been more 'shaped plates on the shoulder guards, aka the ones you see on the columns? The other rivets could be for the connecting leather?

[Matt Lukes]

Just now checked back and saw that lunate plate- indeed it's pretty definitively a lower section of a greater shoulder guard from a Kalkriese-type cuirass, however 'odd' it looks LOL Very interesting- and bothersome that yet again something so significant isn't made common knowledge particularly quickly. Without anything in the way of dimensional information I used the width of the hinge to print out the image at about actual size and it doesn't fit well with the fragmentary plate from Vindonissa- it's a good 2cm wider at the top making me wonder if they might be different types like the Corbridge A and B. It's actually monumentally wide- I get nearly 135mm. That plus an already broad breast plate sure makes the protection substantial. It's almost odd when we consider that the Corbridge A went to so much more narrow plates.

The other oddity is the lack of a rivet below the hinge for the internal leathering- so either it didn't use the three strip format, it wasn't connected and the strip just ran behind it, or the surface corrosion has hidden the rivet/hole. The fact that there seems only evidence of binding on the inner edge is interesting. And the shape, while very odd to those of us used to the Corbridge form does make sense at least with respect to the very curving outer edge certainly making moving one's arms across the chest easy and safe.

I guess it makes sense that early on new technologies have a lot of variants- until such time as one is deemed the best choice for whatever reasons.

And no I don't think so- the leathering rivets would be at the edges of narrower plates like you've suggested- plus there's no need for several in the same area- one per leathering strip is all that's necessary. The general shape and binding only on the 'short' side fits with the lunate plate from Kalkriese though- it's just the weird rivets that don't. I don't much like trusting diagrams though- in truth that one only shows one rivet in the section, and three round bits that seem to be in the front view. I'd rather see high-resolution images of the real thing from multiple angles... too bad Brugg is so far away