Falcata, saunion and falarica...

[ParthianBow]

Latin is such an unknown quantity to me... hock:
Does anyone know what the plurals of these words are, please?
Falcata
Kopis (I know these are one and the same thing. I'm using the word falcata, but it might be useful to have a backup)
Saunion
Falarica/Falerica (depending on the text) as described by Livy

Many thanks.

[The Alexandrian]

I would guess:

falcatae, saunionae, falaricae

[M. Demetrius]

Saunion could be sauniones, after the same rule as centurio: centuriones. But not all words follow the "standard" grammar rules.

[ParthianBow]

Thanks, Alexandrian/Jonathan!

But not all words follow the "standard" grammar rules.

Arrgghh! Thanks! I'll see if an editor I worked with before knows. Her Latin is pretty good.

It's such a shame that the education system decided that Latin was of no use to anyone about 5 years before I entered the secondary system. :evil:

[D B Campbell]

Latin is such an unknown quantity to me... hock:

Two of these words are Greek!

Falcata is a Latin feminine adjective meaning "curved". Pliny (e.g.) uses it to describe the shape of a rooster's tail feathers. There is a Latin word falx, which means a curved blade like a sickle. The plural of falx is falces.

Kopis is a Greek word meaning a "chopper" or "cleaver". One kopis, several kopides.

Saunion is a Greek word meaning "javelin". One saunion, several saunia.

Falarica/Falerica (depending on the text) as described by Livy

Phalarica is a particular type of Iberian missile mentioned by Livy (21.8 ). Lucan calls it a falarica (Pun. 6.198). I have never seen it spelled falerica, which sounds plain wrong! As a good Latin first declension noun, the plural is phalaricae/falaricae.

[ParthianBow]

Latin is such an unknown quantity to me... hock:

Two of these words are Greek!
Falcata is a Latin feminine adjective meaning "curved". Pliny (e.g.) uses it to describe the shape of a rooster's tail feathers. There is a Latin word falx, which means a curved blade like a sickle. The plural of falx is falces.
Kopis is a Greek word meaning a "chopper" or "cleaver". One kopis, several kopides.
Saunion is a Greek word meaning "javelin". One saunion, several saunia.
Phalarica is a particular type of Iberian missile mentioned by Livy (21.8 ). Lucan calls it a falarica (Pun. 6.198). I have never seen it spelled falerica, which sounds plain wrong! As a good Latin first declension noun, the plural is phalaricae/falaricae.

Thanks for your help, Duncan! Greek, Latin, I wouldn't know, I'm sorry to say. :? It's all Greek to me, as I think a character in Asterix once said.
However, I do want to get the words correct, hence my asking. Thanks for the explanation of where falcata comes from, but you didn't say what the plural of the word is. I find it used a lot in the singular, referring to a curved Spanish sword, so I had presumed that there is a plural of it as well. Is this not correct?

Regarding your query about 'falerica': it may well be wrong, but no less than Theodore Ayrault Dodge refers to it thus on page 160 of his excellent book 'Hannibal'. Everywhere else I've seen the word used, it has been spelt falarica, though.

[Ron Andrea]

"It's all Greek to me" is actually older: AD 1599, but even closer to Rome, Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Act One, Scene Two:

"But, for my own part, it was Greek to me."


:wink:

[D B Campbell]

Thanks for the explanation of where falcata comes from, but you didn't say what the plural of the word is.

It's an adjective, so it takes its ending from the noun it describes.

I find it used a lot in the singular, referring to a curved Spanish sword, so I had presumed that there is a plural of it as well. Is this not correct?

Where have you seen the word used? I wonder if this may be an error? Or a neologism, like "lorica segmentata"?

[D B Campbell]

I find it used a lot in the singular, referring to a curved Spanish sword, so I had presumed that there is a plural of it as well. Is this not correct?

Where have you seen the word used? I wonder if this may be an error? Or a neologism, like "lorica segmentata"?

I stumbled upon an article by Fernando Qesada Sanz which confirms my suspicion:

"Aunque pueda parecer paradójico, el término falcata no aparece como sustantivo en las fuentes literarias antiguas, sino que fue adoptado por los eruditos de finales del siglo pasado para designar este tipo característico de arma ibérica prerromana con forma vagamente similar a la de una hoz (falx); en las fuentes clásicas el término <<falcata>> aparece a lo sumo empleado como adjetivo: falcatus ensis (Virg., Aen. VII 732)."

[ParthianBow]

Hi Duncan

I have found numerous references to the word "falcata", most of them here on Roman army.com!
If you put the word "falcata" into the search facility, over 200 references come up. I checked lots of them after the ones to do with this thread, and all/virtaully all referred to the sword as if its name was "falcata".

I also found it referred to in this manner on page 98 of Connolly's Greece and Rome at War: diagram 13 "Spanish sword (falcata)".

Also in Head's Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars, page 148 "Though Celtiberians used the falcata, various straight swords were commoner"; also on page 149: "Both of these have falcata, two javelins or light spears..."

I totally accept your word that "falcata" is an adjective, but I think in these circumstances that I can be forgiven for thinking that the word is a noun! I think the correct use is probably "espada falcata", a term which I have seen used once in Head's book, and which I obviously did not pay enough attention to because of the repeated use of the single word "falcata". It appears that most people are using the term incorrectly, then. Thanks for making it clear.

Now I think I will probably go back to the Greek word kopis!

[M. Demetrius]

I guess, though I'm not a linguist, that usage of a word will cause it to have a specific meaning after a period of time. For the sake of this argument, substitute "curved" for falcata.

Though Celtiberians used the curved, various straight swords were commoner

It could be that we're just dealing with an untranslated word, used in a way that the ancients would consider incorrect, but we have come to accept as normal. Regardless of what we call them, the nomenclature isn't something that ought to cause us to unsheath them and go to war. :!:

As was already mentioned "lorica segmentata" would probably have raised curious eyebrows in the 1st Century legion. No doubt they had some name for it, but we don't know what it was, right?

BTW, in a previous entry, I was totally wrong about the ending for saunion, since it's a Greek word, it doesn't need to follow Latin grammar rules at all, does it? :oops: :wink:

[Ron Andrea]

I agree. How people actually use a word--more than what it originally meant--is how languages evolve. It's frustrating for those trying to decipher some obscure text, but it's life. Many words start out as simple descriptors, then become used as the description.

[D B Campbell]

Many words start out as simple descriptors, then become used as the description.

We should perhaps clarify that, in this case, it appears to be a Spanish scholar who has adopted the word as a classification, not an ancient source. So it would probably be out-of-place for Ben's fictional character to refer to his falcata, as the word was not used in that sense until the 19th C!

[Ron Andrea]

Oh. :oops: You're quite right. Apparently, I'd lost the thread of the conversation.

[ParthianBow]

You see, it's a total minefield knowing what words to use! And yet, I feel that using such words gives a novel about the time a more authentic feel
I prefer the word 'falcata' to 'kopis', though However the fact that it can't really be made into a plural, when I need it to be (because more than one soldier will be carrying a 'falcata' (!)), may be the deciding factor. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Which brings me to another quandary: what is the plural of 'kopis', please? :oops: