Signifier and Optio 1st Century BC

[Graham Sumner]

Sorry, I don't have the book on me right now,

What! You mean to say you do not keep a copy of it by your side at all times!

Yep basically Johnny has copied my work, so he must trust my judgement. Unlike you he has not met me and does not know what a rogue I am! :wink:

Graham.

[ParthianBow]

Yarghhh! Why do I always discover these threads after the time I need them? :evil: Thank the gods I did, though. It proved I hadn't made too many c*ck ups in my latest book! :roll: :oops:

[RKotern]

Hey Graham not PLATE II but PLATE I
I bought your book. It's really great work! I have few questions.
There was not OPTIO in Roman Republic (Late Roman Republic too).
In late roman republic Centuria consisted of: 1 centurion, 1 standard-bearer (aquilifer, signifer or vexillarius), 1 tesserarius, 1 musician ( cornicen, tubicen or buccinator) and rest legionaries. Right?
I still can't understand what tesserarius exactly do in centuria, for example while attack.
btw: Beneficiarii were attendants of the officers right? For example in the camp? So he didn't fight.
The immunes were legionary soldiers who possessed specialized skills, qualifying them to perform duties atypical of a Roman soldier. They were excused from fatigues. There were them also a few in each centuries?

[Crispvs]

As for the tesserarius, we know that he was responsible for disseminating passwords to his century. In a way, that does not seem like much for someone who was paid half again as much as the rank and file. I would guess therefore that he would have had other related functions as well. I have often speculated that his password dissemination function might also suggest some involvement in the setting of duty rosters as well, which we know there were an awful lot of. These of course would be camp, rather than combat related duties, although who knows what legitimate battlefield position/function he might also have occupied.

Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Hey Graham not PLATE II but PLATE I

That depends, which book do you have? This figure appears in two books although slightly modified in ROMAN MILITARY DRESS.

Graham.

[RKotern]

Thank you Crispvs.
Graham I mean ,,Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier: From Marius to Commodus , 112 BC - AD 192"
BTW: I still have questions. What's about Optio in Late Roman Republic. In your book ,,Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier: From Marius to Commodus , 112 BC - AD 192" there is nothing about Optio in Late Roman Republic, only about tesserarius ;/. Only since 30 BC ( The Roman Empire in the Age of Expansion 30 BC - AD 192) is written that the Optio was in the Roman Army. How I should understand it ?

[Lucius Duccius Rufinus]

The idea of the split horsehair sounds reasonable, but this might be easily shot down but would an obvious way of distinction not be different colour horse hairs for centurions? i have no evidence to back that up, but was thinking from a centurions soldiers spotting and identifying their officers a few ranks back point of view.

was thiniking for example regular soldiers horse hair would possibly be black (uncoloured) and an officers would be coloured, Red, blue or purples i guess? as we know colour did play a significant part in roman society, purples for example being colours of people of great importance (and wealth!) but i'm not sure if this would have been the case pre-imperial? (still expensive tho!).

Just my two cents

[Crispvs]

It's not a bad suggestion, but as you say yourself, the evidence is lacking. What evidence we do have in fact, would rather point against your suggestion. Polybios, when writing of the Roman army of the 130s BC, mentions that soldiers wore black and purple feathers on their helmets, but does not mention centurions' crests being any different to those of their men, saying instead that centurions tinned or silvered their helmets to make them stand out. It is entirely possible that horsehair crests were being used but Polybios does not mention them as far as I know. The Aemilius Paulus relief at Delphi is fairly damaged and retains no evidence of crests unfortunately. The Domitius Ahenobrbus relief shows what appear to be horsehair crests, but no evidence of their original colour has yet come to light. It is also impossible to know whether the soldiers shown are all of the same rank or of various ranks (leaving aside the obvious senior officer). In addition to these things, the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief is not securely dated and could date from any time between Marius' wars against the Cimbri and Teutones and the period when the Young Caesar was consolidating his power to become Augustus. This might not seem long, but a lot can change in sixty to seventy years and clearly did. It is just that we have very little evidence to go on.

Sorry to stir up the mud in the waters again.

Crispvs

[Lunico]

I'm also interested in the legionairs during Caesar. How common or widespread was the Pugio among the soldiers at that era?
Is it correct that the regular legionairs didn't have belt plates back then?

[Crispvs]

The short answer, as so often, is that we simply don't know and probably never will.

For a slightly better answer though, daggers were almost certainly in use by Roman soldiers in Caesar's time. They have been found on a number of first century BC sites, including Alesia, in combination with what appear to be other Roman weapons. Those examples found in Spain may possibly be Iberian rather than Roman, but the distinction may be blurred as the Roman pugio had Spanish origins. The Romans may have encountered and started using the pugio at the same time as they discovered and started using the gladius hispaniensis during the Punic Wars. Then again, they may not have done - we just don't know. To confuse the issue, first century BC deposits in Spain might possibly be associated with Sertorius, who we know recruited locally and formed Roman style legions from Spaniards, so even pugiones found in Roman contexts in Spain might or might not be of Roman issue. The identification of the Alesia example is more secure as a Roman dagger, as it was found with what appear to be other Roman weapons in a deposit on the line of Caesar's siege lines. However, some Gallic weapons were also found and it may be that the assemblage was a mixture of Roman and Gallic items and may have formed some sort of monument. We should also consider that it is not completely impossible that some Celt-Iberian tribes may have been involved in Gaul and if so we might expect them to carry Spanish type weapons which might include daggers. That said, the dagger from Alesia is of fairly normal form for its time and it is also very similar to daggers in use by Roman soldiers a century later, so it seems reasonable to conclude that it might have been carried by a Roman soldier.
As to how commonly they were carried by soldiers, again we just don't know. We do know that they were commonly carried by soldiers a century later and Josephus description of Roman soldiers in Judea in the AD60s strongly suggests that it was normal at that time for Roman soldiers to carry both sword and dagger. However, tombstone evidence from the mid first century AD suggests that not all soldiers carried pugiones at the time. What, if anything, that means for the mid first century BC is down to how you feel the available evidence should be interpreted.

Regarding belts, although there are certainly belt plates surviving from first century BC contexts, they are few in number compared with later periods, suggesting that plated belts may not have been very common in Caesar's time. None of the sculptures dating to the period seem to show plates and belts seem to be plain. It is normally suggested that if belt plates are to be used on a Caesarian reconstruction they should be flat and plain. However, what evidence there is for belt plates during the first century BC suggests that they would be more decorative, although they would not closely resemble the belt plates used a century later (belt plate styles seem to have changed regularly every 25-50 years, making them quite a good way of dating an impression).
As to plated belts being plated only on the front, this is certainly a possibility for some belts during the first century AD. The soldier buried in a well at Velson in the late AD20s-early AD30s had only enough belt plates to have covered half his belt, although they could have been more spaced out. The fact that the ends of one or two of the (obviously second hand) plates were folded over, though, suggests that they may have been intended to cover a defined area. It is also worth remembering that none of the tombstones from the first century AD which show plated belts show the back of the soldier and it is possible that these belts may only have been plated on the front. Josephus mentions an incident where local Jewish troublemakers crept up behind soldiers and cut their belts with sharp knives. This would be difficult (although not impossible) to do if the backs of the belts were plates but not so difficult if the backs of the belts were not covered by plates. There is also a sword from Vindonissa, probably dating to the AD70s which seems to have had a military belt wrapped around it which featured only five belt plates. Anyway, this all relates to belts during the first century AD, not Caesar's period 70 to 120 years before. It does however suggest the possibility that those belts of Caesar's time which featured plates may only have featured them on the front.

I hope that helps a little.

Crispvs

[LvpvsRomanvs]

I've found out who the artist of the picture a posted is. Giuseppe Rava. Here's a link to his Ancient works: http://www.g-rava.it/opere/evo_antico_eng.htm

I have to say, I like his style.

Edit: Here are some late republicans: You can see the Centurion near Crassus with the white traverse plume. There's a tribune nearby I believe, too.

[attachment=2:3t850fob]<!-- ia2 Carrhae.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:3t850fob]

But I'm not sure about the centurion in this one:

[attachment=1:3t850fob]<!-- ia1 22.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:3t850fob]

And another one of Caesar and his officers - you can see a centurion in the background:

[attachment=0:3t850fob]<!-- ia0 Ave_Caesar.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3t850fob]
- Lorenzo.

[Lunico]

@ Crispvs:
Many thanks for the time and effort you soent in your post! That was very helpful for me in creating my impression of an Legionair of that time.